[mresseguie]

"First, there is no perfect speaker.

Second, there is no perfect speaker.

Third, there is no perfect speaker."

Jeff,

What is it that you're trying to tell me? Stop beating around the bush. I can take it. 

[mresseguie]

Charles,

I'll load pics and rough dimensions (no tape measure) in the morning. I guess I can list some of the speakers that I lust after as well.

In Taiwan, it is my bedtime. Nitey night.

Michael

[FullRangeMan]

Check out amphion 3LS. Similar to Duke's Jazz modules.

Bipolar speakers have the same acoustics phase(+) to front and back, this offer a different soundstage than dipoles(which have - and + acoustics phases), but may can be better than regular front emission speakers only.

[AJinFLA]

Box speakers is what every professional uses to record, mix, and master recorded music, enough said.

Pretty sure Mr E is after home playback, not recording. There is a significant difference, so folks who say what you said (and I see it very often), are often repeating folklore.
The home listener/consumer shouldn't give a hoot what the "Pro's" used. If you've ever been to a studio and/or heard tissue covered NS-10, soffit UREIs, etc. you would why. They sound horrible.
Interestingly, if you read Floyd Toole, when they tested "Pro's" with trust your ears listening, they overwhelmingly preferred a "home" type dose of reflections when listening for enjoyment, not the studio "pro" level.
People should choose speakers based on what they prefer, not "Pro's" or anyone else.
Regarding bass, there are practically zero "Pro's" practicing what this summarizes quite well: https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270

cheers,

AJ

[FullRangeMan]

Box speakers is what every professional uses to record, mix, and master recorded music, enough said.

This is because its what they have on hand or what fit in the studio above that huge mixing desk.
They do it for money, the faster the better, a monitor speaker is just a tool, it would be a headphone(much more transparent than a 2way monitor), I already worked in a studio and stage w/various rock bands and these pro audio people have really hard ears, its no surprise they like and use lots of compression.

Musicians and pro audio guys hate and despise audiophiles why audiophiles are a demanding public able to detect all the crap they produce in their work.
Pro audio guys and audiophiles are as water and oil they do not mix for this I looked other job.

[JLM]

AJ/FRM,

I respectfully disagree with your opinions.  Allow me to qualify.

Good studio monitors sound good.  Yes the NS-10 in particular are notoriously bad sounding and have been used to simulate cheap portable/car gear.  AJ, not sure what you mean by studio "pro" level.  The type of presentation from various speaker types should follow what was used to record, mix, and master.  Sorry not a AES member, so couldn't access your link, but have read and fully agree with the in-room multiple bass source concept.

Professionals work with their speakers, versus audiophiles who listen for enjoyment.  Top drawer professionals need to complete their work on a schedule, so they need to arrive at the "right" sound sooner than later (with the right imaging that headphones don't allow for).  If the question is generically which type is the best, then I stand by my post.  If the question is purely subjective, then it's simply an individual decision.

[JLM]

Ask and ye shall receive!
http://www.lals-audio.com.tw/eng/product/product.asp?smenutitle=Neo%2DClassical+15&book_id=117&hot=&Category1_ID=460&Category2_ID=471&anclasspro=&nclasspro=A035&MenuTitle=Neo%2DClassical+Series&pagetitle=Neo%2DClassical+15

http://www.lals-audio.com.tw/eng/product/product.asp?smenutitle=Classical+18&book_id=114&hot=&Category1_ID=473&Category2_ID=479&anclasspro=&nclasspro=A035&MenuTitle=Classical+Series&pagetitle=Classical+18

Michael, I'd call that a horn/cabinet hybrid speaker.

[FullRangeMan]

I was refering to the pop/rock market, in the classical music studio guys work at a more loose way due longer terms.

[G Georgopoulos]

Pretty sure Mr E is after home playback, not recording. There is a significant difference, so folks who say what you said (and I see it very often), are often repeating folklore.
The home listener/consumer shouldn't give a hoot what the "Pro's" used. If you've ever been to a studio and/or heard tissue covered NS-10, soffit UREIs, etc. you would why. They sound horrible.
Interestingly, if you read Floyd Toole, when they tested "Pro's" with trust your ears listening, they overwhelmingly preferred a "home" type dose of reflections when listening for enjoyment, not the studio "pro" level.
People should choose speakers based on what they prefer, not "Pro's" or anyone else.
Regarding bass, there are practically zero "Pro's" practicing what this summarizes quite well: https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270

cheers,

AJ

Very good post AJinFLA

what's your opinion on best 3d image , dome/ribbon vs horn/cone tweeters?

Thanks

[mlundy57]

Michael,

If you manage to get to Dallas in May you will be able to hear all three types of speakers (box, OB, & horn) set up in an oversized hotel room (e.g. small room). I'm usually not the only one with OB, last year Manzanita was there also; Pi Audio always has horns; and there were a number of rooms with box speakers from small bookshelf monitors to huge Legacy towers. JWM Acoustics had some stunning stand mounted MTM monitors that had me looking around for the subs (which weren't there).

Check out this link.  http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=20287&prevloaded=1&&start=10   Scroll down to message #82553 (about a third of the way down the page) to view the different systems that were at the show (continued on page 3).

All three types can sound good even in small rooms, it depends on placement. The Pi Audio horns sounded very good. As mentioned earlier, they are aggressively toed in so they cross in front of the listener.

If, in addition to the room being small, you have other restrictions that limit your set up options, that could knock one or more of the designs out of consideration. However, if you can live with less than optimal soundstage, imaging, etc. under everyday listening but have the ability to easily rearrange when you want to really enjoy the music then put things back when you're done (like when your wife leaves) you open your options back up.

As others have mentioned, it's not really an issue of which is best, rather it comes down to what you prefer and can live with. For example, while horns can sound good and I can appreciate them (I've even owned Klipsches before), I'm not really a horn guy. I prefer OB. I would love to have my OB system in the living room since I spend most of my evenings there however my wife will have none of it, something about actually wanting to be able to walk through the living room  . So the living room has transmission line speakers while the OBs are in what was a spare bedroom. I'm lucky, my house is big enough (and all the kids and grand-kids have moved out) that my wife and I can both have what we want. The living room system is her's and the OB system is mine.

Mike

[mresseguie]

Michael, I'd call that a horn/cabinet hybrid speaker.

JLM,

What makes this a hybrid?

[mresseguie]

Charles,

Here are those pics I promised to post. I'll add commentary once they've successfully posted.

Speakers: Fritz Speakers LS/5-R
Amp: Nuprime Audio ST-10 150w/channel
Preamp: Don Sachs Model 2 (SP14) 6SN7
DAC: Gustard X20u
Squeezebox Touch
Mac Mini via SBT wireless
Tidal via SBT

My original plan/intention had been to buy two Rythmik double eight subs to use as speaker stands. However, after listening to many many speakers since then, and being in a position to afford higher budget components, I decided to probably want to buy floor standing speakers - though I may still select the monitors/subs approach. The LS/5-Rs will be placed in my small home office (approximately 9'L X 8'W X 8'H) once I have new speakers.

Once I decide on which speakers to squeeze into this space, I expect to buy a tube amp in 2018.

Sadly, the Dalmore was finished two nights ago during the party we threw for my brother-in-law. The 19 yr-old Matisse was very disappointing.


This shot is what you see upon entering the front door. We're on the fourth floor. The floor is engineered wood floating floor. The top 3.5mm layer is real Teak. We love it. The dining room in the distance was originally a bedroom, but we knocked the wall out to open up the space and to allow light into the room. I snapped these photos at night.


I haven't seen discussions about them, but my wife tells me ironing boards are important first reflection diffusors.


This is the wife's officially approved position of the speakers. I do pull them out up to a foot from the front wall and another 12" to 18" apart while I'm listening to music. I really need to place wood blocks under the speaker stands and add spikes to the stands. The monitors are supported by Duralex pads which I want to replace with additional wood blocks. The speaker stands are about 10cm too short, but I couldn't find the correct stands last year because I didn't know where to look.


Last year, my wife was away for two nights, so I repositioned my system. The front wall became the picture window/curtains. I had the speakers four feet from the window (with the curtains closed) and 8 feet apart. This sounded fantastic. Oddly, my wife won't allow me to keep my audio system there.  I'm guessing mlundy57 (and a few other tortured souls) might understand this.


After prepping her with the need for acoustic improvements for a couple years, and with the help of Taiwanese audiophiles agreeing with me, my wife seems to be ready to accept the addition of acoustic panels, diffusors, and bass traps. They're badly needed. I've finally located a couple Taiwan based manufacturers who won't charge me an arm and a leg for a few panels. I originally thought I'd buy from GIK or PI Audio, but shipping just two 4' X 2' panels costs about $300. [Yeah, forget it.]

We've actually been throwing around the idea of selling this home and buying a larger home. I keep hoping this will happen, but my wife is loathe to sell. Time will tell.

[FullRangeMan]

Nice photos, thanks for posting.
Seems your room dont suited to OB in this position.

[AJinFLA]

The type of presentation from various speaker types should follow what was used to record, mix, and master.

No.
It should be whatever you prefer. You have no clue what someone else heard recording, mixing and mastering, nor should you care or base any decision on it. That's precisely why I used the NS10 and UREIs as examples, used to make much music. That's what was used, but most certainly not what I would want to suffer through at home. Nor do I want a mixing console sitting in my living room.
The fact that box speakers are used to mix, master, etc, is irrelevant to home playback consumer. Hence dipoles, bipoles, horns, etc, etc.
Whatever one prefers, not appeal to popularity/authority.

cheers,

AJ

[mresseguie]

Hello, AJ.

It's good to see your posts again. I had noticed and missed your 'voice' on AC. 

Mr. Esseguie

[AJinFLA]

Sorry not a AES member, so couldn't access your link, but have read and fully agree with the in-room multiple bass source concept.

If in mono, as it most often is, sometimes as high as 80-100hz, that is not what is recommended...for music. HT, yes, music, no.

[AJinFLA]

what's your opinion on best 3d image

This (summary) http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136
So not just 2 front channels and not just frontal/direct radiation from the front 2 channels, but indirect capability as well.

dome/ribbon vs horn/cone tweeters?

All, properly implemented, are capable of creating whatever one prefers.

cheers,

AJ

[JLM]

JLM,

What makes this a hybrid?

A "real" horn speaker should be 100% horn(s), in my opinion (by definition).  Nearly all are just as you posted, horn mid/treble and box woofer, a hybrid of two speaker types. 

[JakeJ]

I must also clarify that my opinion about horns is based on the fact that I do not care for compression drivers no matter their implementation.

[FullRangeMan]

I must also clarify that my opinion about horns is based on the fact that I do not care for compression drivers no matter their implementation.

Most compression horns have duck voice, the only horn I listened that dont had bad voice was a super system w/a Avantgarde Duo.