[Steve]

Speaker positioning and especially toe-in play a huge role in the speakers "disappearing" act. My system(s) sound best when there is lots of "air" in the recordings. To achieve that, I have found that they must be symmetrical to the room and each other. I have them measured to 1/32" to a sound that I want. This (IMO) has way more merit then any effect with the associated electronics connected to the speakers.

'ner

I agree Wayner, I have also adjusted for symmetry to within 1/32". Really amazing how touchy speaker placement is, even beyond the disappearing position.

What I have found is that the electronic accuracy is very important for producing accurate "flesh" of instruments and voices across the entire audio band, along with soundstage, dynamics etc. I guess minimizing problems in all the areas is my "thing". I am still tweaking my amps (power supply touch ups) and speakers (three adjustments) for maximum naturalness. For me, it is a back and forth tweaking and using a variety of music.

Once you have your room set up optimally, you might as well take the recordings as they come.

Which begs me to ask a couple of questions. How does one know when the speaker setup is optimal, and secondly, how does one choose their electronic components? Does it require the recording to be optimal? Does it depend upon the genre of music? Does one choose the equipment and placement depending upon if the music is classical, or rock, or country western etc?

Cheers and thanks for the comments. Keep them coming.
Steve

[Steve]

Once again, I am truly amazed how touchy it is when adjusting my test speakers in my 13' x 27' room.
1/32" movement, whether forward or backward, rotating, or tilting of the speakers.

Besides that, I have three adjustments on the xover, on the back that I can adjust. And just the slightest bit
adjustment of any of them and the sound stage, tonal balance, bass damping, naturalness etc changes. With just the slightest change, the sound can be overly full, or too bright/edgy etc, and sound questionable. Again, I am adjusting the tonal balance in the -105db range (reference fundamental) and the naturalness just changes.

The advice I have is to take one's time when setting up their speakers, and if possible, purchase speakers which have adjusting controls as well.

Cheers
Steve

[sledwards]

I just have to chime in on this thread. 1/32 inch of adjustment to achieve "audio bliss"??  To achieve this on a repeatable basis, you must be using something like this in your setup:



My approach; try a little toe-in, move them in or out a little and settle on a position that sounds good from where I sit and enjoy the music.  Move them based on genre? Thats a crazy amount of work IMHO. I am an engineer, and firmly believe in the KISS principle.

Regards,

Steve

[Tone Depth]

1/32" corresponds to a half-wavelength of about 400 Hz? It seems to me that is what you would be sensing, frequencies centered around there by moving your speaker cabinets apart 1/32".

Once again, I am truly amazed how touchy it is when adjusting my test speakers in my 13' x 27' room.
1/32" movement, whether forward or backward, rotating, or tilting of the speakers.

Besides that, I have three adjustments on the xover, on the back that I can adjust. And just the slightest bit
adjustment of any of them and the sound stage, tonal balance, bass damping, naturalness etc changes. With just the slightest change, the sound can be overly full, or too bright/edgy etc, and sound questionable. Again, I am adjusting the tonal balance in the -105db range (reference fundamental) and the naturalness just changes.

The advice I have is to take one's time when setting up their speakers, and if possible, purchase speakers which have adjusting controls as well.

Cheers
Steve

[JLM]

Sound travels 13,200 inches per second in air near sea level, so 13,200 Hz sound waves are 1 inch long and 422,400 Hz is 1/32 of an inch long.

[Steve]

I just have to chime in on this thread. 1/32 inch of adjustment to achieve "audio bliss"??  To achieve this on a repeatable basis, you must be using something like this in your setup:



My approach; try a little toe-in, move them in or out a little and settle on a position that sounds good from where I sit and enjoy the music.  Move them based on genre? Thats a crazy amount of work IMHO. I am an engineer, and firmly believe in the KISS principle.

Regards,

Steve

I am an electronics engineer for some 45 years. You failed to present your specific reasonings behind your assertions. I would also suggest a study of Rane, Olson, engineering principles, RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, etc and see if it matches your assertion.

For instance, 1/32" has nearly cost me customers over the years because the sound stage was not large enough, or the sound was too bright, or too much bass. Remember we are some 8 feet away, so our 1/32" will be "magnified" by that rotation. Check the tweeter's radiation pattern. What changes in the highs will affect our perception of the lows, and visa versa.

My results are quite repeatable by any number of visitors over the years, and at their venues. However, there is a caveat.

The system must be excellent. Engineers using just a few equations to produce a design won't produce optimal components and great "sound". Go to the shows/dealers, most with components with "great specifications" designed by engineers, and listen to the variety and poor quality "sound".

Lastly, I don't drink the kool-aid that seems to be fostered about on some forums.

Cheers
Steve

[Steve]

Sound travels 13,200 inches per second in air near sea level, so 13,200 Hz sound waves are 1 inch long and 422,400 Hz is 1/32 of an inch long.

I am not sure what you mean J and Sled?

The determination is how much of an octave is accompanied by the amplitude variation. Rane has determined that it takes about 1/3 of an octave width before we perceive it. So if there is a sharp dip 1/4 of an octave wide, we most likely will not perceive any change in sonics.

If there is only a slight change in amplitude over several octaves, this will be perceptible.

Simply move one's head and check for any deviation in perception.

Cheers
Steve

[sledwards]

Really nothing more to add to this discussion other than confirmation as to why many feel these types of posts suck the life and fun out of audio.

[G Georgopoulos]

I am not sure what you mean J and Sled?

The determination is how much of an octave is accompanied by the amplitude variation. Rane has determined that it takes about 1/3 of an octave width before we perceive it. So if there is a sharp dip 1/4 of an octave wide, we most likely will not perceive any change in sonics.

If there is only a slight change in amplitude over several octaves, this will be perceptible.

Simply move one's head and check for any deviation in perception.

Cheers
Steve

If your ear is in good condition all frequencies are perceptible,all amplitude and octave (freqs)  are perceptible,as you turn your head the ear focuses on sound,it's called loudness,as you turn your speakers the same effect...

my couple of cents

[srb]

Really nothing more to add to this discussion other than confirmation as to why many feel these types of posts suck the life and fun out of audio.

I would address your comment, but I can't move my head from the sweet spot right now.  Not even 1/32".  When I do remove my head from the listening seat head vise, it will be only to get up to manually adjust my independent left and right channel volume controls.

I suppose somewhere in the middle, between this and listening to 128kbps tunes on my phone with $2 earbuds, lies good, fun, sensible audio.

Steve

[Steve]

Try to post some information that might help our viewers, and the kool-aid comes out from some and degrade the string. It is true that typical systems are not that sensitive, but there are those who truly value superior reproduction quality. There is a certain thrill to perceiving superior, natural sounding instruments. So why stop them?

I hope viewers will continue to work with their speaker placement, and variable controls if so provided, to find the most natural, life like musical reproduction they can obtain. It may take some time, but it is well worth it imo. I am still incrementally adjusting my test speakers (amp and preamp are super accurate in absolute terms) because there are so many variables to deal with. Anyone is welcome/invited to audition my test setup if they wish. On any given day, it may be better or worse, depending upon the variables I am dealing with.

This string has quickly become caustic; maybe it is time to close this string to prevent any more arguments.

Cheers
Steve

[Letitroll98]

I don't think it's a caustic thread, simply some members who disagree, no one has made any personal attacks or anything.  And I think it's a great subject of debate, so the thread is staying. 

I've spent countless hours positioning speakers to find the perfect approximate position, and when I measure to get them perfectly symmetrical in that position, the magic collapses.  So as outlandish as it seems, Steve may have something in that 1/32" paradigm.  And it's not just for super high dollar systems, all speakers benefit from proper placement, (one of those considerations in placement would be not to have to have your head in a vice when listening in the sweet spot, it's the speaker that needs the 1/32").

I've found five standard positions for toe in.  Straight ahead, toed in a couple of degrees, pointing just behind the listening position, pointed directly at the ears, crossing in front of the listening position.  I don't bother with in between until I determine which is best for that speaker and room, then I adjust within that parameter.

[Steve]

There are several of us helping each other out on placement of speakers and it is routine to adjust 1/16" or even 1/32". As mentioned earlier in my posts, by the time one moves 10' away from the drivers, there is a definite distance change relative to the position of the tweeter. It is not just a one and done visit, but many visits as there are many variables to deal with, especially if one is working with the crossovers themselves, as I am doing. There are different types of tweeters, which is also important.

As L98 correctly points out, it is not just the super expensive systems, but it is the reproduction quality of those systems. Big difference. On the opposite side of the coin, the inexpensive electronics is guaranteed not to be the ultimate either. There is also the issue of venue quality, how well it is treated. If one has resonances, especially peaks in the lower mid-range into the lower bass region, better take care of them.

Cheers
Steve


 

[Speedskater]

Almost none of us have symmetrical listening rooms. If you add in the acoustical properties of doors, windows and the different properties of exterior & interior walls, none of us have symmetrical rooms.

[Steve]

Almost none of us have symmetrical listening rooms. If you add in the acoustical properties of doors, windows and the different properties of exterior & interior walls, none of us have symmetrical rooms.

Does not need to be as the adjustments are just as critical on excellent systems. Proper placement still applies.

Cheers
Steve

[Speedskater]

I was just looking at photos of Siegfried Linkwitz's listening room. No way to make measurements in a room like his. When your room sounds as good as his, let us know.

[Steve]

I was just looking at photos of Siegfried Linkwitz's listening room. No way to make measurements in a room like his. When your room sounds as good as his, let us know.

I will pit my system and sound against his any day of the week, except Saturday.   

Cheers
Steve

[Speedskater]

Almost none of us have symmetrical listening rooms. If you add in the acoustical properties of doors, windows and the different properties of exterior & interior walls, none of us have symmetrical rooms.

Does not need to be as the adjustments are just as critical on excellent systems.
Cheers
Steve

non-sequitur?

[Steve]

non-sequitur?

Are you saying reflections off walls disappear in Siegfried's room and placement is not necessary? Are you considering electronic component quality? I also think you are responding to L98's post concerning "symmetrical". Please post a link to Siegfried's room.

Cheers
Steve

[sledwards]

It's a new day, I slept well and now back to contribute: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Ping_tests/room_reflections.htm