ART DIO (stock) vs. ART DIO with Tube-O-Lator

nathanm · « **Reply #80 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 04:15 am »

Quote from: witchdoctor

I owned the Bolder modded ART Di/O DAC and sent it in for the Mensa and Tubolator upgrade. I have never listened to a stock unit. Nor have I listened to a mensa without the tubolator application.

May I ask why you decided to modify the unit without hearing a stock version first?

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The effect of the mensa/tubolator upgrade on my system provided a more relaxed , natural presentation of the music. Decay of piano notes seem to fade just a little longer. you can hear the quick breath Norah Jones takes between phrases while singing, that little gulp for air. Big band horns are much more dynamic while you can really hear the taughtness of a bow stroking a string.

So none of these things you heard before? If Norah Jones is taking breaths whilst singing (as singers are wont to do

) then it's because that stuff is on the recording. I highly doubt the Tube-O-Lator had anything to do with it. Perhaps you yourself felt more relaxed when you listened to this song? Unless the Mensa modification turns off a compressor\limiter that was otherwise enabled somewhere in the chips it cannot make piano notes decay longer, nor make bow strings 'tauter', nor horns more dynamic; but I can certainly see how one would hear those things if they were consciously listening for them and enjoying the musical content. I thought I heard things too with this stuff, but they were not there.

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There is also a soundstage that seems to extend and wrap around me during excellent recordings.

Again, was this not heard before? You've established that a recording was "excellent" before any help from the DIO, correct?

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I would characterize the sound as if you went from watching a film with dim lights on in the theater with the previous version ( much better than a TV) but now watching in a completely dark room with the mensa/ tubolator version.

I would imagine you would have a better experience if you actually did dim the room lights. It's a mood thing; it works for me too!

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How much of the difference is due to the mensa or tubolator I do not know.

But apparently it was worth $200 sight unseen?

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I would reccomend getting the upgrade vs. the previous moded version.

Hmmm...I wonder who is more the witchdoctor, you or Bolder Cables? I know the latter does have skills in voodoo magic!

I'm really glad you like your system WD, and I'm sure Bolder will be enjoying upgrading theirs as well with your money.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #81 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 04:25 am »

While getting the Tube-O-later mod without hearing the unmodded would give one no frame of reference for how it affects the sound, it does make sense in one way to order it that way in the first place as opposed to shipping it back to have it done later. It's bound to be cheaper than an extra circuit of shipping. Besides, it doesn't cost that much, and I doubt it could hurt the sound.

EProvenzano · « **Reply #82 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 04:28 am »

Quote from: nathanm

I'm really glad you like your system WD, and I'm sure Bolder will be enjoying upgrading theirs as well with your money.

ooooh ...now you've done it! hahahaha you kill me nate

Jay S · « **Reply #83 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 10:58 am »

Quote from: nathanm

So none of these things you heard before? If Norah Jones is taking breaths whilst singing (as singers are wont to do ) then it's because that stuff is on the recording. I highly doubt the Tube-O-Lator had anything to do with it. Perhaps you yourself felt more relaxed when you listened to this song? Unless the Mensa modification turns off a compressor\limiter that was otherwise enabled somewhere in the chips it cannot make piano notes decay longer, nor make bow strings 'tauter', nor horns more dynamic; but I can certainly see how one would hear those things if they were consciously listening for them and enjoying the musical content. I thought I heard things too with this stuff, but they were not there.

I'm really glad you like your system WD, and I'm sure Bolder will be enjoying upgrading theirs as well with your money.

Nathan,

Its a no-brainer that better parts from the Mensa upgrade have the potential to help the DI/O do a better job of reproducing what is on the recording.

Just because you don't hear something doesn't mean it isn't there. People who hear differences when comparing components aren't necessarily deluded. And they aren't necessarily straining to hear the differences.

Do you resent that Wayne makes a profit? What do you do for a living? Do you have a right to have any money to spend on audio? Let us know - we'll decide for you.

Tyson · « **Reply #84 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 11:39 am »

The things Nate writes might be provacative and interesting if I hadn't heard it all before. . .

Be glad you don't hear a difference, it will save you money. Focus your energy on the things that you do hear a difference with (speakers might be a good start).

witchdoctor · « **Reply #85 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 03:02 pm »

Thank you for your reply to my post.
I first decided to buy the upgraded unit without comparing to a stock unit because of:
A) a review posted on Audio Asylum
B) it was part of a system that won an award at CES
C) I had 30 days to return it,
D) I was to impatient to receive the unit , listen, send it to Wayne, listen, and then decide.

I agree that some of Norah Jones breaths are louder and I could hear some of them before my upgrade. I now hear breaths during certain phrases which were not as clear before. I offered this comparison to highlight that I found this upgrade to be more revealing with sounds that are very soft.

I do indeed hope that Bolder makes a profit from my purchase. If they use it to upgrade something in their system it is a reward for the fruits of their labor, just as my enjoyment of this DAC is a reward from the fruits of my labor.

If I felt I was disappointed I would promptly ask for my money back to get some other DAC. Thus I feel my reccomendation to readers of my post is sound. If their system does get the same results a refund is available from Bolder.

witchdoctor · « **Reply #86 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 03:07 pm »

That last sentence should say if their system does NOT get the same results a refund is available from Bolder.

ABEX · « **Reply #87 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 03:09 pm »

What's your system?CDP-AMP-Pre-Spkrs.?

TIA

witchdoctor · « **Reply #88 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 03:17 pm »

Sorry for the ommission:

System -
HTPC > GW Labs DSP Upsampler > ART Di/O DAC modded by Bolder Cable>
Sunfire TG 3 > Paradigm Active 40 speakers
PC- various Virtual Dynamics Cables
PLC- Monster HTPS 7000 , cryoed wall receptacle

Lost81 · « **Reply #89 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 06:53 pm »

I have no experience with the MENSA, but I do with the sMart DIO.

I had a stock unit, which I sent to Wayne.
I bought another as a "stand-bye" unit to use while Unit A was being modified by Wayne.
When Unit A came back, I A/B tested it.
My audience were all non-audiophiles, but are classical musicians.
All of them could tell that the sMart DIO had less sibiliance, less glare, and more detailed, and better defined bass. In short, better separation of the instruments, as well as soundstage.
The decay of the notes on the piano was more realistic. (I play the piano).
Now, of course it CANNOT be compared to being alone in a concert hall playing a Steinway & Sons grand, but then again, I have yet to hear a system in my life that can fool me between the reproduced and the real & 'live.' javascript:emoticon(':lol:')

But I digress.
The following are a list of my stereo set up while doing the A/B test for my friends:

Modified Harman Kardon HD710 CDP [Used as Transport 1]
Stock CAL Delta Transport [Used as Transport 2]
Bolder Digital Cable with Canare RCA ends [Used as IC 1]
Monster Cable Digital Link 100 Digital Cable [Used as IC 2]
Monster Cable Sigma Retro IC [From DAC to pre-amplifier]
Aspen TLP/Nirvana Tube-pre-amplifier
2 pairs of 1m Monster Cable Sigma 2000 Interconnects (IC)
Harman Kardon Signature Series 2.1 5-channel power amplifier
2 pairs of 10' Monster Cable Sigma 2000 Speaker Cables
Mission 753 Freedoms Speakers.
Room treated with Michael Green Corner Tunes.
Large 2" thick Gabbeh wool rug hung between 2 speakers.

The Bolder Digital Cables clearly beat the pants off the Monster Digital Cable in a separate A/B test.

Then, I brought BOTH ART DIO units over to my friend's place.
He and his roommate too concurred with the impressions of my musician friends.

His set up:
Stock Marantz 63SE [Used as Transport]
Bolder Digital Cable with Eichmann connectors
Kimber Kables Hero [IC from DAC to pre-amp]
Audible Illusions Modulas L1 Tube-pre-amplifier
Kimber Kables Hero [IC from pre-amp to amp]
Pass Labs Aleph 3 Pure Class A Power Amplifier [Always on - important since it takes 24 hours to fully warm up (Nelson Pass's own words)]
Kimber Kable bi-wire shot-gunned Hero Speaker Cables
B&W 805 Matrix
Room Treated with 4 giant Jon Risch Acoustic Panels (3' by 5' !!!)

In short, according to at least 11 people, 9 who are skilled in instruments, all of them detected clear differences between the ART DIO and the Bolder Cable modified sMart DIO.

I do not think, for a moment, that Wayne sells snake oil. javascript:emoticon(':nono:')
Far from it. I think he does a great job, and prices his work reasonably.
Soldering and desoldering components is a royal pain.
I had friends ask me to modify their stereos with better components but I almost always decline because (A) their other components are not good enough in resolution to warrant the expenditure, and (B) you can't pay me enough to slave over your mid-fi unit with a desolderer and soldering iron.

If anyone thinks Wayne charges much, do a search for other companies on the web that does modifications, and you will discover just how much value you are getting with Wayne. [Hope this does not lead to a price-increase from Wayne javascript:emoticon(':mrgreen:')]

I am in no way "bosom-buddies" with Wayne.
I do not know him personally.
I'm just a very satisifed customer of Bolder Cables.
I am known for calling it as it is (read my other posts on Audiogon/Harmonic Discord & here).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
benny
---
Look, one says to oneself, look how cold the world is growing. Some more years will pass, and after them will come gloomy solitude; then will come old age trembling on its crutch, and after it misery and desolation. Your fantastic world will grow pale, your dreams will fade and die and will fall like yellow leaves from the trees... (White Nights, Feodor Dostoevsky)

nathanm · « **Reply #90 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 07:17 pm »

Quote from: Jay S

Its a no-brainer that better parts from the Mensa upgrade have the potential to help the DI/O do a better job of reproducing what is on the recording.

That may be true, I haven't heard the Mensa mods. I did not address the Mensa mods, I only addressed the Tube-O-Lator mods. I would hope and expect that the hardware modifications are indeed doing something and making a measureable difference. I don't however think the Tube-O-Lator stuff does anything meaningful for the listener.

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Just because you don't hear something doesn't mean it isn't there. People who hear differences when comparing components aren't necessarily deluded. And they aren't necessarily straining to hear the differences.

True, but in this case my test showed that it wasn't. I thought one sounded smoother and that the soundstage was different, but I heard the same unit twice. So yes, I was deluding myself. And delusions that people are eager to spend money on seems like a disservice to anyone. We WERE straining to hear differences and the ones we heard were within the range of 'slim to none'. I think that perhaps doesn't make a very good case for the product.

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Do you resent that Wayne makes a profit? What do you do for a living? Do you have a right to have any money to spend on audio? Let us know - we'll decide for you.

Jealous of Wayne making a profit? Uh, no. If you must know I help publish model railroading catalogs by handling all the images; scanning, color correction, file processing etc. Not unlike audio, model railroading is the art of making illusions of reality. But I've never seen any marketspeak in that hobby as out-of-whack as in audio. Also, digital imaging is also very much like audio. The results of both can be measured and likewise the human brain can decide which version is more pleasing out of two very different images irrelevant of measurements. You can also fool someone into thinking there is a change when there really isn't by changing outside factors such as ambient lighting and surrounding colors. But I have yet to see anyone presented with two identical proofs and pick one or the other. I personally feel the eye is more sensitive than the ear.

It's wonderful that there's a return policy. But how can you undo the Tube-O-Lator mod? You can't as far as I know. Personally I hope they sell hundreds and hundreds of Tube-O-Lator mods. It's certainly cheaper than swapping all sorts of tiny parts out, and apparently, the most bang-for-the-buck improvement.

I still want someone to address the piss-poor ESD issues this thing has. What's up with that?

jackman · « **Reply #91 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 07:43 pm »

Has anyone compared Tubelator to nail polish or regular laquer paint? I'm not sure if I could hear the difference between a Tubelator treated machine and one without, but if I could, I wonder if regular nail polish would have the same effect? I could just see "audiophiles" claiming different colors having different sonic characteristics. "Ruby Red" is great for jazz but too "hot" for some early digital recordings..."Beaver Brown" (is that a color) is perfect to warm up some bright recordings..."Clear" is recommended for people who like a pure and uncolored sound...

On an unrelated note, has anyone watched the Penn and Teller show on Cable? It's very funny. They totally debunked the who bottled water scam. Sorry to hijack this thread. Just came to mind...

Jman

nathanm · « **Reply #92 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 08:48 pm »

Perhaps "Hi-Jackman" would be a better moniker?

Kidding... Don't fret it, we could all use a little hijacking from time to time. Hijacking the train headed towards the Land Of Mystery and Magic. The sad thing about your nail polish joke is that it isn't all that far from the truth! People do these things! Mebbe yust read past posts in this thread... Hey, tweaks are cool, they do no harm even if they make absolutely no sense. If folks wanna paint their speaker cabinet orange and say it sounds "warmer" be my guest! Put drink cups under your cables - have at it! Keep giving me more material! But as far as painting some chips on a board and selling it as a commerical product and claiming it will make the circuits sound more "musical", that I have issues with. Sure, it's ONLY 50 bucks, but so what? Still 50 bucks for nothing! I think vendors should be held more accountable that's all.

What we really need to figure out is how to get the placebo effect without expensive placebos!

Heh!

JohnR · « **Reply #93 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 11:04 pm »

I suppose one might as well also argue that reviewers should also be held accountable

After all, a single listening test doesn't prove anything, it's just a data point.

Hopefully, there'll be other comparisons that are less contentious.

jackman · « **Reply #94 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 11:51 pm »

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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:04 am Post subject:

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I suppose one might as well also argue that reviewers should also be held accountable After all, a single listening test doesn't prove anything, it's just a data point.

Hopefully, there'll be other comparisons that are less contentious.

John, I don't disagree with your statement, but when was the last time you read a review that took place over an extended period? It seems that only the negative reviews are the ones in which people contest methodology. Can't people just state their opinions without being attacked? I also must commend Wayne for not getting into the fray and joining the fun. There are many people (and manufacturers) who do not have his class.

J

ABEX · « **Reply #95 on:** 9 Mar 2003, 11:54 pm »

Geez,if Nate was a pro reviewer I think castration would be sufficient.My speaker's were given a real shitty review by Dick Olsher in Stereophile that almost singularly destroyed Bill Kieltyka's Co. in the marketplace.He even asked to go out to AZ. from ME, to see what the problem was ,but he.Dick Olsher, would not have it.

They were criticaly acclaimed in other articles and were used as a reference by edititors of other mags.

There is another big disscussion going on at present over Bybee Filter's at Madison & AA BB's which were acclaimed by El Dicko also.

It comes down to how critical your system is in my opinion,esp. your speakers.I think of myself as a purist and I think my system reflects that.Anything that colors the sound is out

.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #96 on:** 10 Mar 2003, 12:22 am »

I could see why you'd want to hold a commercial mfgr or professional magazine reviewer "acountable", but applying that to a guy just voicing his personal opinion gives me the creeps. Just how would we "hold him acountable"? Sue him if we didn't like his opinion? We could ask for our money back; oh, wait, his opinion is free!

Castration for diagreeing with the crowd?

Yikes! That seems a little harsh. Guess conformity would be the order of the day, then.

Such a tempest in a teakettle. I'm really shocked that a guy saying the Emporor is naked would get burned at the stake and criticized with such ferocity. Surely no one is that insecure as to be so threatened by one persons opinion?

I can't fathom what topic wouldn't be contentious given the hornets nest this has stirred up.

BTW, I have no idea whether the Tube-O-Lator has any value or not, as I haven't even had the chance to audition a DI/O yet. But I commend Nate for sticking to his guns and standing by his opinion. After all, could I respect a guy that gets bullied into recanting just to please the herd?

JohnR · « **Reply #97 on:** 10 Mar 2003, 12:25 am »

Quote from: jackman

Can't people just state their opinions without being attacked?

Yes, I think that's exactly my point. In both directions.

Rob, if you are responding to my post, you missed the point completely.

JohnR

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #98 on:** 10 Mar 2003, 12:38 am »

Guess I must have missed the post where Nate jumped peoples shit. He may have, but the bulk of the posts here are mobbing him for having the nerve to disagree, or at least this is how it looks. If it was me, after about the 7th page of having my hearing, system, methodology, et al attacked, I'd probably start hitting back.

I thought, John, that your insinuation was that we should stick to "safer" topics for review. If I "missed the point" or misunderstood you, then please feel free to correct me. As for your quote of Jman, that pretty much sums up my feelings, and my post as well. You must have missed that part. I just get frustrated by crap like this. I think it's a hundred percent truth that had he claimed it was the skeeter's peter, he'd have got a hearty pat on the back for his "well thought out review."

What I'm getting at is that I don't always agree with the prevailing opinions myself, but hopefully I can allow someone to hold an opinion contrary to my own without attacking them. I know that I don't always live up to my ideals, either, and everyong gets carried away sometimes.

Surely though we have some common ground here, don't we? Can we agree that his review doesn't actually warrant castration?

I got your back, Nate!

Hell, if everyone prefers arguments to discussions, by all means carry on! I won't intrude upon your fun!

JohnR · « **Reply #99 on:** 10 Mar 2003, 01:18 am »

Oh, I think the part I was responding to you as responding to me was actually you responding to ABEX, who may have been responding to me... or perhaps not.

My point, when I said:

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I suppose one might as well also argue that reviewers should also be held accountable

is that I think the suggestion that vendors be held "accountable" is equally ludicrous. Kudos to nathanm for actually taking the time to do the comparison; now we all have one data point that says that no difference was detectable by nathanm on a unmodded DIO. We *also* have a data point (Pez, Tyson et al) that says that they did detect a difference on a highly modded DIO. And that's about IT. Anyone that really wants to know will have to try it for themselves, or wait for additional comparisons... not that anyone is likely to feel inclined to report it after this...

JohnR