ART DIO (stock) vs. ART DIO with Tube-O-Lator

Pez · « **Reply #40 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 07:37 pm »

Nathan, I understand you're upset, but can you please point out where someone said your system is crap? Let's not exagerate here. Am I suprised you didn't hear a difference? No. Does that mean I think less of you or your system? No. Who can piss further you or I? Who cares!

The point is maybe, just maybe the stuff does make a difference in other systems and posting global statements like "The moral of the story; if you generally like your DIO now don't bother with this stuff. A similar effect can be obtained by wearing red socks instead of white when listening." Is (to say the very least) entirely misleading. Come on you know and I know that tweaks, voodoo, and isolation can have differing effects completely dependant on equipment, listening room, and *gasp* dare I say listening material????? It cuts to the heart, but it's true.

ABEX · « **Reply #41 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 07:51 pm »

Nathan:
If you are pissed at me for asking what your system consist of don't be I was just wondering?

Tweeks are tweeks and some things I really do not hear an overall difference in,but I think there are merits to trying like SPeaker cable lifts.I was not about to spend $200 for some to see so I painted some pencils and used them instead of paying for some.If there is a diff it's minimal to my ears.

One thing that can't be over looked though .Someone else mentioned that tweeks add to the overall presentation to the system.So adding tweeks might add to overall performance and not just one tweek can reduce or improve overall sound!

Just a thought!

JohnR · « **Reply #42 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 08:00 pm »

Seems like Jason has a problem with any review that doesn't agree with his own opinions...

Any review has to be taken in the context of how it was done, etc etc etc, blah blah blah. At the least, this is useful to someone who might be thinking that this magic goop is anywhere on their priority list unless their system is already finely tuned.

As far as the followups go, the effect they've had on me is to move this junk all the way to the bottom of my "things to try" list. Just above Shakti stones. Why bother with something that's a) technically dubious, and b) just gets a load of people bitching at you if you don't gush about how good it is? Sorry Wayne, and BTW thanks for the offer to let me try it, I'm glad I didn't take you up on it.

Cheers

JohnR

Jig_Anon · « **Reply #43 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 08:04 pm »

Appreciate the input. Indeed you are correct - it can take a good amount of time to make these decisions - especially when we are talking about the type of expense associated with it. My existence is centered on figuring out why and how things work - so it is no stretch for me to question this as well. The laquer/epoxy in a tightly wound coil is to reduce vibrations. These vibrations could in theory effect the output of said coil - if they occurred. My big problem is this - the inside of a digital circuit is purely that - digital. Vibration means nothing to a gate. If this were the case - many of the common electronics you know and love would fail to function properly at given points in their life cycle. I am continually struggling with the line between audiophalacy and audiofact. I want a beautiful sounding system - as I am sure we all do. I do not - however - want to be acquiring questionable technology. I read a great audio component magazine last week that had some really impressive graphs showing various technical aspects of X Amp versus Y amp etc. Some of the graphs I found interesting but of little auditory impact. Other graphs I found very interesting. I was ecstatic to see actual data however. It is a given that people desire different things - and some people like the color blue and others red but in this situation - until someone shows me some rational physics - I am at a loss for convincing. I am sort of concerned that people can commit to things like this with such little background.

If nothing else - I wish to get an understanding of peoples decision making process when acquiring gear. If I am to base some of my purchases on peoples opinions I want some physical backup to go along with it. If I told someone that jumping off a bridge into a lake 600 below was fun and healthy who here would question me and who would believe me?

Quote from: ABEX

There is a world of tweeks that are used in audio.You might spend a year to see what ,why and if some of those work.

Raj · « **Reply #44 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 08:17 pm »

Hi Nathan,

well done for sticking to your guns, very few people can acknowledge the fact that not every mod is awesome. However I mean no disrespect to the mod in question, it may well work, but very few people spend money and then have the courage or ability to admit that it wasn't really worthwhile.

Thanks
Raj

Pez · « **Reply #45 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 08:18 pm »

Quote from: JohnR

Seems like Jason has a problem with any review that doesn't agree with his own opinions...

Quote from: Pez

It made a difference, but not enough to constitute buying the stuff opening my equipment, painting it on etc.

It seems that Jason could care less about "tube-o-lator" and more about giving a product a fair shake, but if you want to put words in my mouth John. I guess it's easier to make me look like the bad guy than to truely quantify what I have said here. What Jason has a problem with is when he is smacked in the face for no apparent reason. But hey what can I say other than Fuck you.

ABEX · « **Reply #46 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 08:27 pm »

Quote

If I told someone that jumping off a bridge into a lake 600 below was fun and healthy who here would question me and who would believe me?

Well where the hell where you when that DOE guy had those people all wear NIKE sneaker's and commit Hari Kari in San Diego?
==============================================
I thought this was a damping tweek and you bring up a good point! So if there are people hearing a diff what is it due to?Could it be eliminating elctronic charges that can interfer with the transfer of electrons.Interference?

Some tweeks are obsurd! This I know and the audio community are filled with them.How many times do you hear or read of a revolutionary product that falls by the wayside the next year?There are a few I have seen in my day.

There is nothing wrong with being a skeptic especially when it comes to tweeks .Changeing electronics will give you a better then any tweek shall ever do IMO.
===============================================
You mentioned that you are in pursuit of better amplification.What are you looking for.I am on the same quest.Monarchy,Aragon,McCormick and Odessey look like the best cost effective amps to myself.I have a modified B&K I really like and it outperforms Rotel and a few other's hands down.I might even try to get a few more.

Try to keep your HT seperated from your 2 ch. playback in your system for best results.

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/3684.html

nathanm · « **Reply #47 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 08:28 pm »

Pez: No I am not pissed at anyone in particular but if we wanna talk about misleading statements I think your first reply was the most foolish of all. You immediately dismissed it out of hand just because I used a splitter and a cable you didn't like!? It sounded extremely silly I thought. But no, it didn't piss me off per se.

Hey, how do you know wearing red socks makes no difference? Have you ever compared red vs. white socks?! Let's get the DAM on that shootout ASAP!

All that needs to happen is for more people to demo this laquer. As far as I know only like 5 or 6 people have "heard" this stuff. All but one of those are friends and friends of the guy selling it, so it's no wonder they're all on the same page. No, I am not acusing any of you guys of being in Wayne's pocket, but let's be serious - you guys like to get together and swap cables around on weekends, so that's an entirely different type of listener than people like me. I write my reviews for people on the fence who aren't entirely sure if this hifi stuff is a bunch of bullshit or what the deal is. Obviously it won't be to the satisfaction of people who listen with electron microscopes on their ears. I still feel my comparison was valid; splitter, switch, cables that Pez thinks are "yucky" or not.

When you wanna charge people 55 bucks for .5ml of stuff that nobody really knows what it does or how it works I cannot help but call shenanigans. If that isn't a call for skepticism I don't know what is!

<-- Hey look, this little fella has been treated with Tube-O-Lator!

Wayne1 · « **Reply #48 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 08:31 pm »

The simple statement here is Nathan did not hear any difference in his system between a new DI/O and a older DI/O that I "treated".

When I received his DI/O I listened to it before I treated it and after. I heard a difference.

I would not offer a product or a mod that I cannot hear a beneficitial difference in.

Before I spent any money on this stuff I asked 3 other people, whose ears I trust, to see if they heard anything.

They did.

I feel the difference I hear is worth the small amount of money a treatment costs.

Nathan doesn't.

Fine.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have sent samples of the lacquer to two other folks who are seriously into DIY audio. They have both built and modified quite a bit of audio gear. I expect to get some initial feedback from them by this time next week.

I have had reports from an audiophile in Asia who is very impressed with what the lacquer did in his system.

If you want measurements and explanations, I don't have them.

All I can say is I heard enough of a difference after using this lacquer to spend a fair amount of money buying a quantity of it to sell.

For those of you who wish to hear the difference, or not, themselves, please come to the Midwest Audio Fest where I will be happy to swap digital boards around for you.

Pez · « **Reply #49 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 08:35 pm »

Nathan said: "When you wanna charge people 55 bucks for .5ml of stuff that nobody really knows what it does or how it works I cannot help but call shenanigans. If that isn't a call for skepticism I don't know what is! "

Now there's something I completely agree with! Yeah there ain't no explanation and their sure as hell is little evidence either way, but damn I can't deny that I heard a difference.

I won't be buying the stuff anytime soon, but hey, I haven't bought a lot of stuff that I've tried. Thank God, my debt is bad enough.

Rocket · « **Reply #50 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 09:51 pm »

Quote from: Rocket

hello,

most of the time with these types of products your system has to be of relatively high quality to hear any differences. also the recordings that you use must be good quality.

i really like my rock recordings, however they just don't reveal inner nuances of music compared to be quality recordings.

btw i agree with a previous post i post most of my money into components.

regards

rod

ijust read this post. i'm going to have to proof read what i'm typing, hopefully everyone decyphered what i meant.

regards

rod

JohnR · « **Reply #51 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 09:53 pm »

Quote from: Pez

But hey what can I say other than Fuck you.

Well, you could send me a PM accusing of not being polite to you

I look forward to seeing your response next time sometime attempts to discredit one of *your* reviews. Nuff said

Juan R · « **Reply #52 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 10:01 pm »

Pez wrote " But hey what can I say other than fuck you. I just one to say. I imagine we all are educated people and is a shame that someone write this kind of language in this forum. I am not an expert in music or electronic, but I really enjoy this forum and everything that I learn almost every day. if you do not know how to behave, please is not too late.

bubba966 · « **Reply #53 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 10:51 pm »

Quote from: nathanm

I still feel my comparison was valid; splitter, switch, cables that Pez thinks are "yucky" or not.

Nathan,

I've not doubt that your system if plenty good enough to reveal differences made by small tweeks such as this.

I also think that whatever one listens to for comparisons shouldn't be something that's "reccommended" for comparo's. But it should be something you're very familiar with. Who cares what it is, you should just be familiar with it.

I think though that the one problem was the method you were using to compare the 2 DI/O's.

I agree, it sounds like the best way to test such things. I in fact did damn near the same thing to test a Digital I had Wayne build me.

I pulled out one of my LD players that had 2 PCM outs. Hooked up the Bolder digital on one PCM out and my old Monster on the other PCM out. As I was using the PCM signal I listened to a CD that was of supposed high quality and switched between the 2 inputs on my receiver. I was not familiar with the CD, or with listening to 2 channel sources on my system as I don't ever listen to 2 channel. But it was supposed to be good to listen to when determining differences.

I had a hard time telling between the two.

I was a bit disappointed to say the least. How was a custom digital that cost $100 more than the Monster not really any better? It was built with Silver Eichmann's & Cryo treated. Yet it didn't seem to be much different than the $35 Monster I'd been using.

So I mentioned it to Wayne, as well as my testing method. He mentioned that I was testing the cables wrong, and that I should only test them with one hooked up at a time. I didn't really see why it'd make a difference testing one at a time or running them both real-time and switching inputs.

So I tried listening to one at a time on material I was very familiar with, a copy of The Fifth Element on Superbit DVD. I played a chapter or two with my old Monster. Then I pulled out the Monster & plugged in the Bolder Silver Bullet Cryo'd cable.

It took all of 10 seconds for me to be able to tell the difference. The Bolder was a huge improvement over the Monster. But I couldn't tell before as I wasn't testing them properly.

Wayne mentioned he'd PM'd you about the testing method you applied. Try doing it again as he suggested. Maybe you'll be able to tell then, maybe not.

I'm certainly not trying to dismiss your setup or software. Hell, most of my setup is dismissed by "audiophiles" as crap, so who am I to say anything about anyone else's gear.

I'm just saying you should try a different testing method. If you've got questions as to why it'd matter how you tested the DI/O's, Wayne should be able to explain for you why it matters. He told me what I'd done wrong and why, but I don't remember it all right now.

nathanm · « **Reply #54 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 11:01 pm »

Quote from: Raj

Hi Nathan,

well done for sticking to your guns, very few people can acknowledge the fact that not every mod is awesome. However I mean no disrespect to the mod in question, it may well work, but very few people spend money and then have the courage or ability to admit that it wasn't really worthwhile.

Thanks
Raj

Thanks Raj, but technically I only spent 10 bucks on shipping the DIO to Wayne. He did the treatment for free just because I was being such a pain in the ass and he wanted an outsider opinion. Well, he got it!

Although I usually only like to spend my audio toy money on things with shiny metal on them, had I spent the 55 bucks for this stuff I'd probably be thinking about the other stuff I could've spent it on. I dunno, like a pair of pants or some groceries.

Heck, I'll be the first to tell you something I bought isn't anything special. Makes no difference to me!

nathanm · « **Reply #55 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 11:18 pm »

Bubba,

I have replaced the Y-connectored HGA cables with a shielded digital cable but I have not yet bothered to plug the outputs of the DIOs into the exact same set of jacks on the back of the SE-9 because I think that is truly and utterly a non-issue. But I will try it anyway. I hope to do a test with other people's input. I still think it would be 10x more fun to compare speakers than two 99.999% identical DACs!

I totally believe in doing "real world" testing. The cross the t and dot the i stuff is fine for guys in lab coats, but I am just the customer, ok? I wanna stick the equipment in the system just the way anyone else would and not be fretting about how thick the plating is on the RCA jacks. Sheesh!

I will also gladly compare the unshielded to shielded digital cables. I was not aware that incoming "hash" made such an effect on the sound. I would think that if said hash was so bad the music would skip or cut out, right? Well, it does if you rub your feet on the carpet. Why nobody has addressed this particular issue with the DIO is beyond me. Where are the faraday cage mods? Where are the liquid nitrogen immersion mods? Where are the DIO cable elevator tweaks? A 3 inch long Y-adapter destroys fidelity but static doesn't? Hmmmm...

Kishore · « **Reply #56 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 11:23 pm »

Quote from: nathanm

When you wanna charge people 55 bucks for .5ml of stuff that nobody really knows what it does or how it works I cannot help but call shenanigans. If that isn't a call for skepticism I don't know what is! <-- Hey look, this little fella has been treated with Tube-O-Lator!

That's totally uncalled for. Your attitude is very similar to those who dissed you on this comparo

. Take a step back-there are folks who believe that the tubolator has made a +ive difference.

Moreover, Wayne is not your typical salesman with BS- he believes in what he makes/sells AND (more importantly) is a fellow audiophile. If you disagree with him fine but don't go anywhere with such stupid comments.

There are tweaks without explanations which have created a difference among audiophiles-I know folks who swear by Shakti Stones, lifting cables (using wedge), dropping crystals in their CDPs to improve sound (hell branded Power Conditioners use this tweak) etc etc- I have not tried them-dunno if it will make a difference in my set-up-but these folks doing the tweaks are not morons..

Cheers,
Kishore

nathanm · « **Reply #57 on:** 5 Mar 2003, 11:49 pm »

Oh geez Kishore, you're breaking my heart!

Well you're right, it was uncalled for. But most comments people make are 'uncalled for' by other people now aren't they? But I'd like to call on you to make some comments. Specifically, I'd like to see what other exciting word shortenings you've got up your sleeve besides "comparo" and "+ive"

I can hardly wait!

Pez didn't seem to think it was a stupid comment, and he's a friend of Mr. Wayne. Not quite sure how you got the "morons" inference from that particular comment of mine, but hey maybe you're onto something...

ABEX · « **Reply #58 on:** 6 Mar 2003, 12:00 am »

Some tweek references!

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1002498109&openflup&21&4#21

http://www.audiotweaks.com/collection_descend.htm

Pez · « **Reply #59 on:** 6 Mar 2003, 12:19 am »

Quote from: Kishore

That's totally uncalled for. Your attitude is very similar to those who dissed you on this comparo

This whole damn thread is uncalled for from beginning to end. Just leave up Nathan's review, lock the thread and dump the rest of this garbage in intergallactic waste.