Horn Loudspeakers

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macrojack

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #40 on: 14 Feb 2017, 03:02 pm »
Even though Bill's horns are no longer available for less than the price of a Tesla, the compression drivers he recommended are available still. The B&C DCM 50 and DCX 50, according to Bill, employ a five inch cone diaphragm unlike other alternatives. He said that it successfully mimics the performance of the legendary RCA 1428 fold coils.

I'm hesitant to offer this info because I do not know what I'm talking about and am simply conveying info I received from my horn guru. So do your own research on that before investing. I'm pretty certain I got it right but cannot say with complete confidence.

No one said anything but my horn and woofer are clearly not time-aligned very closely but Bill said only about 10 - 12 inches difference probably wouldn't be noticed at the XO frequency I use. So far I have never noticed but I have never experimented either.

DaveC113

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #41 on: 14 Feb 2017, 03:42 pm »
Fiberglass horns are ok, but need a good bit of damping added to reduce their contribution. I used many cans of plasti-dip and a bunch of mortite, it helps but wood horns are a better option imo. It's not a huge deal though, any horn is going to store energy and have a sound, but it's a type of sound that our brain filters out, kinda like how your brain filters out constant smells after a while.

Also, IME time alignment at ~400 Hz isn't critical.


macrojack

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #42 on: 14 Feb 2017, 04:13 pm »
Fiberglass horns are ok, but need a good bit of damping added to reduce their contribution. I used many cans of plasti-dip and a bunch of mortite, it helps but wood horns are a better option imo. It's not a huge deal though, any horn is going to store energy and have a sound, but it's a type of sound that our brain filters out, kinda like how your brain filters out constant smells after a while.

Also, IME time alignment at ~400 Hz isn't critical.

Thanks, Dave. I don't know the wavelength at that freq. but I guessed it was probably longer than my listening distance. Is that the correct way to look at it?

DaveC113

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #43 on: 14 Feb 2017, 11:13 pm »
Thanks, Dave. I don't know the wavelength at that freq. but I guessed it was probably longer than my listening distance. Is that the correct way to look at it?

I haven't thought about that, but from what I've experimented with the alignment around 400 Hz isn't much of an issue. I did the math, took measurements that perfectly agreed with the math and experimented with the bass being aligned vs offset +/- a pretty decent range and it's just not perceivable. At higher frequencies I definitely measured some cancellation effects, then after a certain range at even higher frequencies it ceased to matter anymore again. I have a mid horn that covers from 400-15000 Hz, which basically eliminated the entire issue and makes the speaker sound a lot like a single driver as far as coherence.


JLM

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #44 on: 15 Feb 2017, 01:20 am »
At sea level the length of sound waves are 13,200 inches = 1,100 feet = 343 meters divided by the frequency.

macrojack

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #45 on: 15 Feb 2017, 01:06 pm »
Using that formula, I calculated a wavelength of 2.5 ft. for a 450 hz. wavelength. My listening distance is about 12 ft. The voice coils of my compression drivers sit about 10-12 inches behind my woofer voice coils. Can anyone tell me, using this data, if the XO point is theoretically audible?

I've never heard anything to indicate a seam but I wonder what science says on the subject.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #46 on: 15 Feb 2017, 03:51 pm »
Holy cow, has this thread ever gone OT.

Was the OP trolling here? They posted in Low Wattage Systems. What makes more sense (Audiophile or not) than horn speakers if your amplifier has 1-2 watts of power?
Why does it seem that horn loudspeakers are NOT accepted by more audiophiles and reviewers?
I would suggest there are plenty of Audiophiles and Reviewers who enjoy horn loudspeakers and review them positively.  Why do YOU think they don't?



Armaegis

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #47 on: 15 Feb 2017, 05:58 pm »
Using that formula, I calculated a wavelength of 2.5 ft. for a 450 hz. wavelength. My listening distance is about 12 ft. The voice coils of my compression drivers sit about 10-12 inches behind my woofer voice coils. Can anyone tell me, using this data, if the XO point is theoretically audible?

I've never heard anything to indicate a seam but I wonder what science says on the subject.

That translates to a roughly 1ms difference and is potentially audible, assuming the two drivers are pumping out at exactly the same time. If your woofer has a delay, it's probably lining up reasonably close.

seadogs1

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #48 on: 15 Feb 2017, 07:07 pm »
Reply to Rusty Jefferson:
First of all I resent the remark that I was trolling. Next, most reviews that I read the reviewers have stated they do not like the high end or the low end and sometimes not even the middle of the audio spectrum in most horn loudspeakers. To be sure there are some horns that sound great but most are quite expensive. The DIY horns can be built to the owners likes and dislikes to be sure but what I was trying for was maybe find horns that were already built that sound great thru out the audio range. As far as audiophiles go I think some of you will agree that there are more box speakers to choose from than horn speakers. Again I was wondering why? I also posted a like post on OB loudspeakers for the same reasons. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #49 on: 15 Feb 2017, 08:31 pm »
Sorry Seadogs, I didn't mean to accuse you of trolling, I was looking for clarification. You posted that question in Low Wattage systems and 3 pages later still hadn't commented or tried to keep the thread on topic. No disrespect intended.
Reply to Rusty Jefferson:
....... To be sure there are some horns that sound great but most are quite expensive. The DIY horns can be built to the owners likes and dislikes to be sure but what I was trying for was maybe find horns that were already built that sound great thru out the audio range. .......
That's a great point and worthy of it's own thread.



rajacat

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #50 on: 15 Feb 2017, 09:03 pm »
I like the Autotech horns. Which one would be the best choice? I'm open to changing the HF driver of course.

- Woody
I built these using an Autotech waveguide (SEOS 18).  The woofer is the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. The box is sealed. The unfinished box is a 6" folded horn which will go down to ~25hz. The waveguide enclosure can be moved in or out to help with phase issues or be removed if I want to try a different waveguide/horn.



undertow

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #51 on: 15 Feb 2017, 09:15 pm »
Horns are excellent when done right. But that is the issue with such high efficiency drivers they expose everything! Noise, bad recording balance, terrible room acoustics etc...

I even had a pair which were simply off "Tonally" from one side to the other causing vocals to sound a little more full on one side, it was not a huge night and day thing, but once you find it this can become an obsession hunting down the weak link.

Turns out it was a factor of getting really really good matched Capacitors on the midrange, as most of the times tolerances in caps from the factory from any good Audio companies should be pretty right, and tight. Generally with speakers in the average 89 db and below range good luck hearing much variation unless its really bad. But put them on 100 db horns and it's a whole new world of balancing, and getting super close tolerance left / right components, acoustics, and tonal balance all the way down the chain.

Horns can be a real adventure is my only warning!

Freo-1

Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #52 on: 19 Feb 2017, 03:53 pm »



Glad to see some interest in this thread.  I think horns have lots of potential, but in addition to the observations by undertow above, the other issue with them is getting a flat (linear) response curve from them.  It's almost impossible. 


I have to say that some of the most life like systems I've heard had horn speakers.  However, it is very challenging in most real world environments to get them to sound their best. 

rajacat

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #53 on: 19 Feb 2017, 04:52 pm »


Glad to see some interest in this thread.  I think horns have lots of potential, but in addition to the observations by undertow above, the other issue with them is getting a flat (linear) response curve from them.  It's almost impossible. 


I have to say that some of the most life like systems I've heard had horn speakers.  However, it is very challenging in most real world environments to get them to sound their best.
Actually, waveguide horns make it easier to achieve a flat in room response because of their controlled directivity. Read Geddes et al.

hi5harry

Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #54 on: 19 Feb 2017, 05:21 pm »
I'm really enjoying this post and love the pics of wood horns, but no Acapella owners on Audiocircle? I really do believe that horn speakers make music with horns sound better.

rajacat

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #55 on: 19 Feb 2017, 05:30 pm »
Fiberglass horns are ok, but need a good bit of damping added to reduce their contribution. I used many cans of plasti-dip and a bunch of mortite, it helps but wood horns are a better option imo. It's not a huge deal though, any horn is going to store energy and have a sound, but it's a type of sound that our brain filters out, kinda like how your brain filters out constant smells after a while.

Also, IME time alignment at ~400 Hz isn't critical.
Dave,
Have you tried lead tape?

http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/SSP-Lead-Foil-Tape-1-X-50-Roll/productinfo/09-42750-LF1-50/

stwombly

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #56 on: 19 Feb 2017, 10:49 pm »
Somewhere at the beginning of this string someone mentioned the Volti horn speakers.  I own the Alura's.  I went to Axpona last year and heard the Vittora's first and they were incredible.  But they were too big for my listening room.  So went to listen to the Alura's in a different room.  That was the ticket!  Bought them at the show.  These are my forever speakers!  I heard everything at Axpona and have also have heard lots of systems around the country as I travel a lot.  And have owned some decent speakers before this and never thought I liked horns.  But I've never heard anything like the Volti horns.  For me horns are now the thing!

Folsom

Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #57 on: 19 Feb 2017, 11:24 pm »
I preferred the Alurra, greatly, nice choice. 99db effeicny must be fun for playing with low power amps.

stwombly

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #58 on: 20 Feb 2017, 04:04 am »
The Aluras are driven by the Van Alstine Ultravalve Tube Amp.  I'm also using the Van Alstine Fet Valve CF. This combo makes these horns really sing. Its unbelievable how an amp as inexpensive as the Ultravalve can sound so darn good.

DaveC113

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Re: Horn Loudspeakers
« Reply #59 on: 20 Feb 2017, 02:46 pm »