[JLM]

roscoe65,

I agree that the K-horn is not the best, or my favorite, example of horn speakers but are probably the best known.  At Axpona 2015 I was only drawn into one room, the big Classic Audio room with the big horn speakers because it sounded so life-like.  But I don't have a 25,000 cubic foot room that they need to really perform at their best.   

OzarkTom,

Even in sealed/ported designs some estimate that over half of the sonic output is from the cabinet, not the drivers.  Some designers even strive for it, but then everything sounds in part like the cabinet.  Horns like these would resonate horribly and you'd be hearing mostly the plywood.

[DaveC113]

The Classic Audio Speakers don't need an especially large room imo... it's true they are too big for a standard hotel room, but something about double that size or larger would do fine I think.

Also, over half the output from the cab is a bit ridiculous unless the builder is a novice and doesn't know what bracing is.

[mresseguie]

I'd like to thank Seadogs for asking about horn loudspeakers. I have very little experience with this sort of speaker.

Generally speaking, do rooms with horn speakers need more or less treatment? Is ear fatigue an issue?

A couple months ago I attended a high-end audio fest in Taipei, Taiwan, and spent 15 minutes in a room demonstrating Taiwan-manufactured horn speakers. I really enjoyed the music that came out of the two different models in that room. One model had a 12" woofer; the other had a 15" woofer. Both shared the same 44mm titanium driver. I believe these two models were the Classical 12SE and the Neo-Classical 15.

I have often wondered if I'd enjoy the speakers as much after 1 or 2 hours as I did after just 15 minutes. The company showroom is located an hour or so from my home, so I'll visit before too long, I think. Here is the English language link:  http://www.lals-audio.com.tw/eng/company/index.asp

At the show, the 12" model was priced at just $100,000 NTD (if memory serves me right), which is ~$3,000 USD.

[arthurs]

I reeeeaaalllly like these horns!

[Triode Pete]

I reeeeaaalllly like these horns!

Who wouldn't???!!!

[arthurs]

Who wouldn't???!!!

 

I'll have some new power cords and USB in my system come Monday!   

[JLM]

I'd like to thank Seadogs for asking about horn loudspeakers. I have very little experience with this sort of speaker.

Generally speaking, do rooms with horn speakers need more or less treatment? Is ear fatigue an issue?

A couple months ago I attended a high-end audio fest in Taipei, Taiwan, and spent 15 minutes in a room demonstrating Taiwan-manufactured horn speakers. I really enjoyed the music that came out of the two different models in that room. One model had a 12" woofer; the other had a 15" woofer. Both shared the same 44mm titanium driver. I believe these two models were the Classical 12SE and the Neo-Classical 15.

I have often wondered if I'd enjoy the speakers as much after 1 or 2 hours as I did after just 15 minutes. The company showroom is located an hour or so from my home, so I'll visit before too long, I think. Here is the English language link:  http://www.lals-audio.com.tw/eng/company/index.asp

At the show, the 12" model was priced at just $100,000 NTD (if memory serves me right), which is ~$3,000 USD.

Good questions Michael!

Treatment requirements should be lessened as the horn itself is directional.

Fatigue is a definite factor in my book for horns being how dynamic and forward sounding they are (very "in your face", which is partially why I commented on needing a big room).  To me, they force the issue - you either like them or you don't, no prisoners taken.  There is no perfect speaker and horns are not well suited for casual/background listening. 

Those speakers you found remind me of the JBL M2 ($20,000/pair, mastering speakers that put the really expensive competitors to shame).

[Nick77]

I really like my DIY horns, I dont have any fatigue issues so I think design is a factor. These are the Pi4 with JBL 2226 and DE250 compression. I find the sound very enveloping and addictive. 

Boy would I like to hear those Tannoy's!  How would you describe them compared to your prior LS9?

[macrojack]

I can't pretend to be an expert on horns but I have had a horn expert in my life and can share some of his wisdom if you like.

It is not only the materials used in the horn that effects its clarity. Conical horns provide the least distorted, least fatiguing and most coherent sound reproduction. Narrow dispersion (mine are 40 degrees, 20 on each side of center) does help with room acoustics. Also there is no concern with my horns about distance from the rear wall because ALL of the energy is projected forward. The reasons for concern about room size are legitimate but seem to be misunderstood to some degree.

Horn bass is not a topic in my life but I can agree that Klipsch is relatively primitive and definitely built cheaply compared to the other hi-end offerings we are discussing here. The gap is wide enough for us to consign their speakers to mid fi.

I will not be able to comment on horn bass because I use a hybrid system, meaning my horn covers frequencies above 450 and my 15 inch woofer in a ported cabinet represents conventional dynamic driver configuration. The two systems blend very well and the size is kept under control. The footprint of my woofer cabinet is 24 wide by 21 deep. The overall height including horn is 52 inches. Considering the need to bring most speakers (especially dipoles like Maggie or OB) out into the room, I would argue that my horns actually require less space. These arguments apply to my situation only. Other horns may well support the negatives posed here but my goal in speaking up is to clarify that not all horns display the same set of challenges and, therefore, should not be evaluated en masse.

Let me know if any of you will be in the area of Grand Junction, CO. and I will do my best to provide an audition.

[Bob2]

I can't pretend to be an expert on horns but I have had a horn expert in my life and can share some of his wisdom if you like.

It is not only the materials used in the horn that effects its clarity. Conical horns provide the least distorted, least fatiguing and most coherent sound reproduction. Narrow dispersion (mine are 40 degrees, 20 on each side of center) does help with room acoustics. Also there is no concern with my horns about distance from the rear wall because ALL of the energy is projected forward. The reasons for concern about room size are legitimate but seem to be misunderstood to some degree.

Horn bass is not a topic in my life but I can agree that Klipsch is relatively primitive and definitely built cheaply compared to the other hi-end offerings we are discussing here. The gap is wide enough for us to consign their speakers to mid fi.

I will not be able to comment on horn bass because I use a hybrid system, meaning my horn covers frequencies above 450 and my 15 inch woofer in a ported cabinet represents conventional dynamic driver configuration. The two systems blend very well and the size is kept under control. The footprint of my woofer cabinet is 24 wide by 21 deep. The overall height including horn is 52 inches. Considering the need to bring most speakers (especially dipoles like Maggie or OB) out into the room, I would argue that my horns actually require less space. These arguments apply to my situation only. Other horns may well support the negatives posed here but my goal in speaking up is to clarify that not all horns display the same set of challenges and, therefore, should not be evaluated en masse.

Let me know if any of you will be in the area of Grand Junction, CO. and I will do my best to provide an audition.

Wish I was close enough to stop by and hear those! Very nice!

[macrojack]

Thanks, Bob. There are about 150,000 people living within 50 miles of me and, as far as I know, none of them are AC members and probably not audiophiles either. On the plus side: if you travel from Colorado to Utah on I-70, you will pass within about a mile of these horns.

[Ictwoody]

Macrojack,

Can you provide any more details on these horns? I currently have a pair of Onken cabs that I run with Altec 511B horns and Altec drivers. I would like to get away from the cast aluminum horns, but I'd like to stick with a 2-way configuration and so something that could cross low enough is a must.

Love the look of yours and wonder if they might be a viable option.

- Woody

[roscoe65]

Macrojack,

Can you provide any more details on these horns? I currently have a pair of Onken cabs that I run with Altec 511B horns and Altec drivers. I would like to get away from the cast aluminum horns, but I'd like to stick with a 2-way configuration and so something that could cross low enough is a must.

Love the look of yours and wonder if they might be a viable option.

- Woody

Woody,

Are you running Altec 416's or 414's on the bottom?  If you're running a 416 a two-way becomes a challenge and needs a driver crossed over fairly low (1,200 hz or so).  The 414 can run a lot higher and is easier to use in a two-way speaker.  Also, FWIW, a lot of people find the 511/811 horn to be very shouty.

[Ictwoody]

These were actually built using a Dayton Audio woofer... the PA380-8... Here's the specs...

http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/pa380-8-15-pro-woofer.html

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa380-8-15-pro-woofer--295-034#lblProductDetails

- Woody

Woody,

Are you running Altec 416's or 414's on the bottom?  If you're running a 416 a two-way becomes a challenge and needs a driver crossed over fairly low (1,200 hz or so).  The 414 can run a lot higher and is easier to use in a two-way speaker.  Also, FWIW, a lot of people find the 511/811 horn to be very shouty.

[roscoe65]

I'm not familiar with that driver, but you owe it to yourself to try a pair of 416's in the Onken cabinet.

If you don't like the 511 horns - and most people don't - you choose a number plastic or fiberglass horns from Autotech.  DIYSoundgroup has them in the US.

[arthurs]

Macrojack,

Can you provide any more details on these horns? I currently have a pair of Onken cabs that I run with Altec 511B horns and Altec drivers. I would like to get away from the cast aluminum horns, but I'd like to stick with a 2-way configuration and so something that could cross low enough is a must.

Love the look of yours and wonder if they might be a viable option.

- Woody

Check this guy http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=9515

[roscoe65]

Similar ones are available from on Ebay from Ukraine:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Multicell-Horns-1505B-for-1-4-drivers-Altec-288-and-others-similar-/322421294127?hash=item4b11ce842f:g:30IAAOSw5cNYeOJ-

They are a nice wooden replica of the 1505.  Of course, if you would rather spend $800 than $2,000 you can get the 808 replicas:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Multicell-Horns-H808-for-1-drivers-Altec-others-/322408492964?hash=item4b110b2fa4:g:JOQAAOSw8w1X7z2H

The 808 is pretty well respected for use with the 802 driver.  Another great option is my favorite 32A horn, a 90 degree bent metal horn that is also a favorite of Joe Esmilla (and Joe Roberts).

[macrojack]

Macrojack,

Can you provide any more details on these horns? I currently have a pair of Onken cabs that I run with Altec 511B horns and Altec drivers. I would like to get away from the cast aluminum horns, but I'd like to stick with a 2-way configuration and so something that could cross low enough is a must.

Love the look of yours and wonder if they might be a viable option.

- Woody

Woody -

My horns were made by Bill Woods of Hastings, Ontario. He had a company called Acoustic Horn. The ones I have were offered as the AH300. Mine are cherry but he offered them in a variety of solid woods. The mouth is 18 inches and the throats are 2 inch. The aluminum part is cast and powder coated and custom machined to mate with your predesignated compression driver. I chose to use B&C DCX 50.

Now the bad news:
The last time I contacted Bill he informed me that he was under exclusive contract to Jonathan Weiss of Oswald's Mill. The contract forbids Bill to converse with anyone concerning speakers or anything apropos to speaker system design, theory, acquisition or implementation. This restriction extends to include former customers like me.
There are some number of these horns out there but I would hazard a guess that the number is extremely small. I'm thinking it may be less than a dozen. If you see them for sale anywhere, buy them.

[Ictwoody]

If you don't like the 511 horns - and most people don't - you choose a number plastic or fiberglass horns from Autotech.  DIYSoundgroup has them in the US.

I like the Autotech horns. Which one would be the best choice? I'm open to changing the HF driver of course.

- Woody

[sonicboom]

Woody,

Very nice speakers you got there. Yes, the horn as others have said is not one the best examples of the breed. It's not because it's a metal horn, but because of a pinch at the throat that creates diffraction which we're sensitive to, especially at higher SPL's. The Altec multi-cells that were recommended above as well as the 805B's, are really in another league as compared to the sectoral's (811/511). They are also quite a bit more rare and expensive.

I am at this point very close to ordering a Le Cleac'h type horn from Azura Horn, their model AH-425. This was a custom design for Lynn Olson that came out of the megathread "beyond the ariel" over at diyaudio. it was designed with the 1.4" large format compression drivers in mind such as the Altec 288 and Radian 745NeoPB.

I'm including bellow some pertinent posts on a couple of builds since it's nearly impossible to wade through the entire thing. One of the builds - perhaps the only one that's well documented, is by Gary Dahl who is an orchestra conductor. Read the linked posts as well as a few posts further down for some better perspective and understanding. I am heading down this same path, hopefully in the very near future.

http://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-731.html#post2298387

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-1295.html#post4399839

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-1436.html#post4984865

Woody -

My horns were made by Bill Woods of Hastings, Ontario. He had a company called Acoustic Horn. The ones I have were offered as the AH300. Mine are cherry but he offered them in a variety of solid woods. The mouth is 18 inches and the throats are 2 inch. The aluminum part is cast and powder coated and custom machined to mate with your predesignated compression driver. I chose to use B&C DCX 50.

Now the bad news:
The last time I contacted Bill he informed me that he was under exclusive contract to Jonathan Weiss of Oswald's Mill. The contract forbids Bill to converse with anyone concerning speakers or anything apropos to speaker system design, theory, acquisition or implementation. This restriction extends to include former customers like me.
There are some number of these horns out there but I would hazard a guess that the number is extremely small. I'm thinking it may be less than a dozen. If you see them for sale anywhere, buy them.

Thanks for the update, I had been wondering what happened to Acoustic Horn for a while now. That's really a bumer since Bill's were some of the best horns I have ever heard. Many years ago I listened to a pair of the smaller AH-700's at a show and that sound has stuck with me ever since. Very open, natural and un-horn like sound for lack of a better word. Can't imagine how great these big boys must sound! You've done really well Macrojack!