BEST DAC (here we go again)

playntheblues · « **on:** 26 Nov 2004, 02:49 am »

I am trying to find the best DAC available new or used without paying silly money for it. I have a friend who can get me 45% off most all new audio equipment which helps

I have looked at Audio Logic, Audiomeca, DCS, and even a used Zanden mark IV which I could have picked up for $5,000. which is twice as much as I can spend but I though if it would be my last DAC then maybe?????????????? LOL. On the other end of the scale I am also considering a Scott Nixon Tube DAC plus.
Kevin (RAKK DAC)has been very kind and helpful with me on the phone (twice). His DAC kit seems like it might be a jewel. I know everything is subjective however if any of the RAKK owners or listeners would be kind enough to post your thoughts that would be great. If you could also let me know what else you have listen too it would help give me a bench mark.
If I go with the RAKK, I think I would get the active output, clocker etc. etc.

Any other ideas would be great. Thank you very much for your help. All the best, Guy

Hantra · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 11:39 am »

Guy:

I don't know anything about the RAKK, so I can't comment on that. And there is a reason you can get a $15,000 Zanden for 1/3 the original cost. The Audiomeca is not a bad DAC, and the DCS is probably good, although I haven't heard it.

The Nixon DAC is right up there with all of those mentioned IMO. I know I'd be truly upset if I spent $5G on a Zanden, and then heard the Nixon. One DAC I like in that price range is the Audio Note 3.1x Balanced. It's 10% better than the Nixon DAC as far as soundstaging and depth, but it's not up to par with any of the PC audio I have heard.

PJ · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 12:05 pm »

$US15000 for a DAC! Surely you could better spend this elsewhere...such as adding a new acoustically-perfect room to your house.

playntheblues · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 12:18 pm »

Thanks Hantra, your post helps. I am zeroing in on the Scott Nixon tube dac and the RAKK DAC ($1,500.). What I can find on the RAKK dac sounds very interesting. I have read that it out preforms top TT set ups, but you know how that is. PC audio? Can you explain? Thanks

nickspicks · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 12:52 pm »

I've got a couple of suggestions.
I'm a big fan of upsampling DACS. Anything that will turn redbook into 24/192 or 24/96 sounds better than straight redbook, imo. Anthing that converts PCM to DSD also gets my vote.

- Benchmark DAC-1.
do yourself a favor and hear one of these before you plunk down thousands. I promise that the $900 DAC-1 will keep up with anything under $5k. Its no lie! there is a lot of hype on this for a reason. I just got this months issue of Stereophile and they are picking it as "product of the year", fwiw.

- Grace m902. marketed as a headphone amp, but it has RCA output. Plus, it has USB input. Handy. I"ve not heard one, but my trusted mentor says that he thinks it bests the Benchmark. And that was his comments on the m901. the m902 is new.

- now this one will be a long shot for some to fathom.....
www.oade.com, mega gear head Doug Oade is planning a MOD for the Sony STR-DA3000ES (which retails on its own for about $700) to be used as a stand alone DAC / preamp combo.
why?
because....Ed Meitner has been working with Sony on SACD technology for years. Big deal?
There are those that say digital music reaches its pinnachle with EMM Labs DACs. (DAC6). These units upsample incoming PCM to DSD...and that is where you reap the benefits. Well, as I said, Ed has been working with Sony for years. And here we have these x000ES series digital recievers...and they also upsample incoming PCM > DSD and sound un-freaking believable when in two channel direct mode and bypassing DSP. They sound so good that I sold $5k worth of componants and replaced them all with a 3000es for strick 2-chan playback. SMOKES my old rig (MF CD-PRE24 > DNA-1 AND a Manley stingray). I couldn't ever imagine owning another DAC. Incoming 24bit PCM being upsampled to DSD is the best thing i've ever heard (sans high-end TT).
My point...is that I think that there is Ed Meitner code in these sony boxes. Similar code found in the EMM Labs DAC6 perhaps? Maybe. Probably?
So, there may be a wicked sleeper product in this MOD from the Oades. Nobody will ever hear about it though. Their market doesnt' include much for "high end" audio shoppers. Unless you are a taper geek (like myself).

I still can't believe i'm running a piece of crap Sony digital reciever as my "high end" stereo. But i've never been happier, and i've never heard ANYTHING that sounds this good in my house.

Another thing to ponder is possibly a modest DAC (any) and then dropping another grand on an Apoge Big Ben master clock. I hear that they improve the hell out of any/all digital playback. A significant improvement at that. Or, you can go cheaper with the Monarchy Audio DIP products...which do the same for under $300.

Hantra · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 02:00 pm »

Well I would like to hear that Meitner DAC. But at that price, I can't really even entertain such a notion.

Guy, I'll point you to a thread where we go into PC audio in pretty good detail. Also refer to Critic's Circle, and the thread about the Butler 2250, Electrocompaniet modded DAC, and AKSA for a good synapses of my PC rig's sound.

Here's the detailed thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=9274

PhilNYC · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 02:09 pm »

FWIW - We did a DAC shootout at the NY Audio Rave a few months ago:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=12876

cjr888 · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 02:33 pm »

Here's a few more considerations:

TwinDACPlus
http://www.twindac.com/
http://www.diy-systems.com/en-us/dept_45.html

LessLoss DAC 2004
http://www.lessloss.com/

Mytek
http://www.mytekdigital.com/products.htm

Most people prefer the sound of the the Mytek over the Benchmark. Right now, as they are releasing new products, and their new 192 DAC that will pass DSD, the Stereo96 goes for cheap, with something along the lines of a buy two for the cost of one sort of price... The new Stereo192-DSD DAC has a stepped attenuator, headphone amp, and ablity to playback DSD as well....and I want one.

Hantra · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 02:42 pm »

I'm going to have to tend to agree with these guys.

In today's digital audio world, it's a much safer bet to pick up one of these cheaper world-beater DACs. I would not go off and spend $5G on any DAC.

In fact, buy you a $1K DAC, send me $3K, and I'll build you a PC that will beat them all, and then you can have $1,500 left for cables once you sell that DAC you bought.

nickspicks · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 04:02 pm »

Quote from: cjr888

Here's a few more considerations:

TwinDACPlus
http://www.twindac.com/
http://www.diy-systems.com/en-us/dept_45.html

LessLoss DAC 2004
http://www.lessloss.com/

Mytek
http://www.mytekdigital.com/products.htm

Most people prefer the sound of the the Mytek over the Benchmark. Right now, as they are releasing new products, and their new 192 DAC that will pass DSD, the Stereo96 goes for cheap, with something along the lines of a buy two for the cost of one sort of price... The new Stereo192-DSD D ...

I"ve heard a lot of good things concerning the Mytek. The new line looks promising. Unfortunately, the 192 stereo DAC (new one) will not upsample PCM to DSD. That sucks

rmihai0 · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 04:34 pm »

Quality and price wise I will look for a MSB TECHNOLOGY or NORTH STAR DESIGN or ELECTROCOMPANIET. For more expennsive DACs I will look for a KORA, BEL CANTO or AUDIOMAT.

Good luck

Hantra · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 04:43 pm »

Quote from: rmihai0

Quality and price wise I will look for a MSB TECHNOLOGY or NORTH STAR DESIGN

Both are very good recommendations! Come to think of it, the North Star combo is one of the best out there that I've heard. The MSB Platinum is pretty good too, but I think the North Star has a smoother sound.

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 06:45 pm »

I've tried several DAC's over the years with so so results. I think that for the best results a DAC should be hooked up to a dedicated transport. Hooked up to a CD player just doesn't make it.
As for myself I have gotten much better listening results by using a top of the line CD player. Right now I have the latest version of the aplhifi SACD 1000. Wonderful player.

Cheers
Charlie

Jon L · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Nov 2004, 07:12 pm »

Quote from: Charles Calkins

I've tried several DAC's over the years with so so results. I think that for the best results a DAC should be hooked up to a dedicated transport. Hooked up to a CD player just doesn't make it.
As for myself I have gotten much better listening results by using a top of the line CD player. Right now I have the latest version of the aplhifi SACD 1000. Wonderful player.

Cheers
Charlie

Here's where Sony and Philips screwed us all with their SP/DIF (Sony-Philips Digital Interface). One could not imagine a more flawed digital interface if he tried. AES/EBU is the same thing.

Buy an expensive CD transport, buy an expensive SOTA DAC, borrow 10 different SP/DIF digital cables and compare the sound. It's common to see anywhere from 10-50% difference in tonality, frequency response, detail retrieval, etc.

It does not matter if the DAC is using double, triple PLL with SuperMan/Spiderman precision clock. SP/DIF stinks.

Some have tried to fight Sony and Philips with proprietary links, such as the MSB link, old Theta's Laserlinque, I2S.

This is why a one-box CDP often sounds better than comparable separates. But most CDP's are cursed with very limited transport mechanisms, shared power supply, shared EMI/RFI, etc.

Not to mention the fact nobody makes 1000-CD transport bank that sounds any good. In my old age, I'm finding it annoying to walk up to my CD rack, look for that one CD I want with my failing eyes, walk back to my CDP, open the drawer, take out the previous CD, jacket the CD, then place the new CD, and walk back to my listening seat.

Before my PC gets here, I've got my much-maligned 4g iPod hooked up to my "serious" main rigt, via EVS ultimate attenuators passives no less. I push "shuffle songs" and just sit there for hours and hours with a big smile on my face.

playntheblues · « **Reply #14 on:** 27 Nov 2004, 09:48 pm »

Ok thanks all, what great information! I think I will get a Scott Nixon or North Star for now while I try to figure out what parts I would need for a PC based system. Is there someone here who could completely outline what parts I need to assemble for the PC system? Or if you could refer me to someone who can. Thanks and all the best, Guy

Jon L · « **Reply #15 on:** 27 Nov 2004, 11:20 pm »

Quote from: playntheblues

Ok thanks all, what great information! I think I will get a Scott Nixon or North Star for now while I try to figure out what parts I would need for a PC based system. Is there someone here who could completely outline what parts I need to assemble for the PC system? Or if you could refer me to someone who can. Thanks and all the best, Guy

Try this link for starters

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93915

Dmason · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Nov 2004, 07:39 pm »

I audtioned alot of DAC's at vastly different pricepoints when I had both the Nixon DACkit and the TubeDAC, including the Zanden Tube DAC, and can tell you that to these ears, the Nixon pair were in no way shamed by any of the UberDACs out there, at all. I second Hantra's remarks.

My preference was the DACkit, which sounded abit smoother to me, overall. Run on a 9V battery, the $250 DACkit is pretty damn hard to beat. Try it with a battery powered amp and then compare. ---->

Less=More in Audio. And always remember....

audioengr · « **Reply #17 on:** 28 Nov 2004, 08:39 pm »

Quote

Not to mention the fact nobody makes 1000-CD transport bank that sounds any good. In my old age, I'm finding it annoying to walk up to my CD rack, look for that one CD I want with my failing eyes, walk back to my CDP, open the drawer, take out the previous CD, jacket the CD, then place the new CD, and walk back to my listening seat.

This one is not too shabby, but only holds 400 disks:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/95994.html

audioengr · « **Reply #18 on:** 28 Nov 2004, 08:43 pm »

Quote from: playntheblues

Ok thanks all, what great information! I think I will get a Scott Nixon or North Star for now while I try to figure out what parts I would need for a PC based system. Is there someone here who could completely outline what parts I need to assemble for the PC system? Or if you could refer me to someone who can. Thanks and all the best, Guy

If you already have a DAC, then all you need is some free downloads of ripper, player and a USB to S/PDIF converter. The maudio.com Transit does it with a toslink. You can also get an Apple AirPort Express and do it wirelessly with toslink, but you need a PC or MAC with 80211.g wireless capability. BTW - I mod all of the above to reduce jitter and add coax outputs.

Passive Chappy · « **Reply #19 on:** 29 Nov 2004, 05:22 am »

I know I'm jumping in late here and the decision may have been made already but if it doesn't work out consider the 47 Labs Shigaraki DAC. Real nice sounding piece.