[sunnydaze]

I have tried and failed to integrate the sub at about 80hz. I just don't know how to set it. Each time I try the bass is way too loud, and my various tweakings never quite got it satisfactory. A smarted person I'm sure would have better luck.

The sub should have a gain / output level control.  Turn it down.

[JakeJ]

I wish I lived closer, I'd be all over those Vaughns!!  In concept they are similar to my Genesis 501s ie. full range driver with powered bottom and ribbon super tweeter on top plus they are also 99 dB efficient.  I think they'd best the Genesis in a shootout.  Certainly would like to hear them.

[Bigfishhk]

The sub should have a gain / output level control.  Turn it down.

Yup, will give it another shot. It's also phase that has to be right .. cheers,

[sunnydaze]

Also, the location in the room can effect the sub's output.  If you are able, try moving it around.

[roscoe65]

Another option is to do two things:

1.  Set the crossover lower, at 50hz or so and run the mains full range.  If the mains have good bass they should give strong output to 40 hz or so.  The sub will simply be supporting the bass foundation.

2.  Adopt the "swarm" subwoofer option.  It is possible to do this with a nicer version of Ed Schilling's Bucket sub.  Instead of buckets, the Parts express .75 cu ft knock down subwoofer cabinet will work.  Use the Peerless 8" 8-ohm SLS driver.  You can run stereo subwooger pairs with the Crown XLS1500 amp using its low pass crossover.  You would have two subwoofers for each channel (4 total) that can be placed around the room to smooth out the bass.  Since your room is irregular and a large volume this may be an idea solution.  The cabinets are 13" x 13" x 13.5".  Total parts cost to do 4 subwoofers should be about $1,000.

[sunnydaze]

Another option is to do two things:

1.  Set the crossover lower, at 50hz or so and run the mains full range.  If the mains have good bass they should give strong output to 40 hz or so.  The sub will simply be supporting the bass foundation.

I assume he is doing this, and he still seeks more mid/upper bass weight and heft.

This is why I suggested running the subs higher, if possible.

Not all subs play cleanly high up.  Mine do, I low pass them at 110Hz.

(Edit:  I high pass my mains at 100HZ.   If I ran them full range,  it's likely I'd need to cross the subs lower than 110)

[Bigfishhk]

I am crossed over at 50hz..

I contacted Rythmik and they suggested  - 

Run LINE IN pre amp to SUB. Run LINE OUT (HPF) from sub to power amp (filtered automatically at 80hz)  - this lets me try having the mains handle everything over 80hz and the rest by the sub. 

I will give it a shot out of curiosity.

[sunnydaze]

I am crossed over at 50hz..

I contacted Rythmik and they suggested  - 

Run LINE IN pre amp to SUB. Run LINE OUT (HPF) from sub to power amp (filtered automatically at 80hz)  - this lets me try having the mains handle everything over 80hz and the rest by the sub. 

I will give it a shot out of curiosity.

High-passing your mains relieves them of LF duty and will allow them to play cleaner with greater purity, ease and transparency.

When I did this there were dramatic improvements compared to running mains full range and supplementing bottom with sub.  Coupla buddies who were also running mains full w/ sub on bottom reported same exact improvements after high-passing mains at 100 Hz (speakers were Omega).

Be sure to raise your sub low-pass to around 80 or 100.  Fine tune ultimate setting (and output) with your ears, they never lie.

[Rocket]

Hi,

I'm horrified that you want to sell your Salk Sound Songtowers and buy a pair of Proac Speakers in their place.  The proacs don't have good quality crossovers or drivers like your song towers do. 

Good luck though.

Cheers Rod

[roscoe65]

I reread this thread and believe that OP's first question may be on the right track.  I think he may be asking too much of the 5.5" drivers in the Songtowers to provide adequate bass slam in the large volume of his listening space.  The Songtowers remind me of Lynn Olsen's Ariel speakers, which were relatively efficient and produced good bass for their size and the small size of the midbass drivers.  However, the OP has a large volume to fill and would need to accommodate that volume when considering a bass solution.

The Proac 2.5 would likely be an improvement in bass reproduction - the driver area is about the same as the Songtowers but with a bass reflex alignment we might expect to see punchier bass.  A friend has some Meadowlark Shearwaters - a TL that uses the same drivers as the Proac - and could never get the bass impact he wanted from the TL.  However the problem still lies in the room:  as we get into the midbass and below, the wavelengths are greater than 10 feet.  We are not so much propagating a wave as we do at high frequencies as pressurizing a room.  It is akin to inflating a tire:  we can use a bicycle pump to fill a bike tire to 120psi very quickly, but have almost no effect on the pressure of a car tire.  We simply aren't moving enough air.

My gut feeling is that you simply will need more than a single 12" subwoofer driver to give a bass foundation.  Given your desire to have fewer speakers rather than more, I would explore exchanging your subwoofer and your current speakers for something with a little more hair on its chest, something with 10" or 12" drivers.  You have a challenge of getting big bass in a big room from speakers of a small footprint.  I would seriously consider one of the Tekton tower speakers.  The price for what you get is absolutely killer.  However, I would beg everyone in the metro area to let you listen to their speaker if possible.  Not too many NYC audiophiles will have the same space you do but you will probably find some others in the nearby 'burbs who do.

[Bigfishhk]

Hi,

I'm horrified that you want to sell your Salk Sound Songtowers and buy a pair of Proac Speakers in their place.  The proacs don't have good quality crossovers or drivers like your song towers do. 

Good luck though.

Cheers Rod

I do love the ST,s, but it's nice to change things after a few years.. and secondly bass and slam in my largish room are not quiet there with the ST,s.
IF I get the Proacs and they don't work out I will hang onto the ST,s and let the Proacs go.
if I had a second, slightly smaller room I would never sell those ST,s because in their element they are world class.

[Bigfishhk]

Hi,

I'm horrified that you want to sell your Salk Sound Songtowers and buy a pair of Proac Speakers in their place.  The proacs don't have good quality crossovers or drivers like your song towers do. 

Good luck though.

Cheers Rod

And Jim Salk is one of the best guys you could ever hope to deal with in this business.

[Bigfishhk]

I reread this thread and believe that OP's first question may be on the right track.  I think he may be asking too much of the 5.5" drivers in the Songtowers to provide adequate bass slam in the large volume of his listening space.  However, the OP has a large volume to fill and would need to accommodate that volume when considering a bass solution.

CORRECT SIR!

My gut feeling is that you simply will need more than a single 12" subwoofer driver to give a bass foundation.  Given your desire to have fewer speakers rather than more, I would explore exchanging your subwoofer and your current speakers for something with a little more hair on its chest, something with 10" or 12" drivers.  You have a challenge of getting big bass in a big room from speakers of a small footprint.  I would seriously consider one of the Tekton tower speakers. 

TEKTONS. I DON'T WANT TO LOOK AT THEM, JUST AESTHETIC CHOICE.  I ACTUALLY WENT AND CHECKED OUT SOMEONE'S B&W 801 MATRIX s2. sound was wonderful, but I concluded they were not appropriate for my space given their size, are more importantly old and hard to replace the drivers.
I briefly heard the Proacs D15 and 2.5 recently in a good and largish room approx 500ft The bass response, soundstaging and overall musicality were beguiling. Of course, diff room...

[roscoe65]

I think you are confirming your own instincts.  The Proacs of that vintage are famous for rocking bass response.  They are also perfect size match for your room and are reputed to be pretty easy to drive.  It would appear that the going price for 2.5's is around $2,000, plus or minus.

If you had a bigger budget the larger Harbeths would be a great fit.

[mick wolfe]

I do love the ST,s, but it's nice to change things after a few years.. and secondly bass and slam in my largish room are not quiet there with the ST,s.
IF I get the Proacs and they don't work out I will hang onto the ST,s and let the Proacs go.
if I had a second, slightly smaller room I would never sell those ST,s because in their element they are world class.

I have a "somewhat" similar room in regard to volume.  Added two HSU (sealed) subs to supplement my SongTowers with excellent results. I didn't want to give up the superb voicing of the ST's, but did indeed want a little more punch in the bass.  Unfortunately, looks like you're working with a much tighter system set-up in regard to available space.  Consider pulling the ST's out into the room a bit further with subs placed behind.

[Bigfishhk]

High-passing your mains relieves them of LF duty and will allow them to play cleaner with greater purity, ease and transparency.

When I did this there were dramatic improvements compared to running mains full range and supplementing bottom with sub. 

GOT THIS SET UP. WOW! Early days but I now have bass and slam I never had before. I'm an idiot for not trying this before. May indeed change my choices going forward..  Thanks for Input.

ST's now 36" from baffle to wall and the right one is virtually clear of alcove corner. Rythmik Sub has only one spot it can go.

DO YOU ADVISE SOUND PANEL TO THE RIGHT OF THE LEFT SPEAKER ON SIDE WALL OR BEHIND THE SPEAKER?

[Bigfishhk]

I have a "somewhat" similar room in regard to volume.  Added two HSU (sealed) subs to supplement my SongTowers with excellent results. I didn't want to give up the superb voicing of the ST's, but did indeed want a little more punch in the bass.  Unfortunately, looks like you're working with a much tighter system set-up in regard to available space.  Consider pulling the ST's out into the room a bit further with subs placed behind.

I'm on it.. But I only have space for one sub and it seems adequate.

[roscoe65]

GOT THIS SET UP. WOW! Early days but I now have bass and slam I never had before. I'm an idiot for not trying this before. May indeed change my choices going forward..  Thanks for Input.

ST's now 36" from baffle to wall and the right one is virtually clear of alcove corner. Rythmik Sub has only one spot it can go.

DO YOU ADVISE SOUND PANEL TO THE RIGHT OF THE LEFT SPEAKER ON SIDE WALL OR BEHIND THE SPEAKER?

Yes - to both.  If you buy GIK panels they often come in sets of four.

[Bigfishhk]

I think you are confirming your own instincts.  The Proacs of that vintage are famous for rocking bass response.  They are also perfect size match for your room and are reputed to be pretty easy to drive.  It would appear that the going price for 2.5's is around $2,000

I can get Proacs for 1600 incl shipping

[sunnydaze]

9 years ago I sold my great condition Proac Response 2.5 for $1500. 

Either I was stupid or values have climbed, as I see recent ask prices in $1500 to $2000 range.