[techguy0192]

This is an interesting topic that I recently discussed with an audio buddy.  Some of us that are into audio place much more focus on the music and less on the equipment.  Good music is good music, right?  Sure better gear will reveal more, but at what expense?  My system, which is mostly Bryston, has a grand total retail of $25,000.  Honestly, I feel like diminishing returns kicked in a long time for me.  I probably reached that point fairly quickly due to having the luxury of a fully acoustically treated dedicated room.  I've been into high end audio for over a dozen years, and it's interesting to look back at all the components I have had over the years.  Some gave truly phenomenal performance and required me to spend a great deal more for only slightly better performance.  In retrospect, I question if those small percentage increase where really worth it, or would a double blind comparison offered a different outcome.   

Interested in hearing where others are in their audio journey.  Thought?

[CanadianMaestro]

Valid points. It's a personal value call. Moi, I stopped reaching for the peak of Audio Everest after I acquired my current linestage. Money was a big factor, but also the biological limits of human hearing and spatial perception. Also, technology -- amps for example, have caps, resistors, transformers, and sometimes tubes. Unless there's a startlingly industry-changing innovation in how these are implemented or designed, not much is gonna improve all that much in terms of music repro in my listening room. IMHO.

An alternative perspective on The Law:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/from-the-editor-the-law-of-accelerating-returns/

[Armaegis]

My point of diminishing returns is softly defined by my mortgage payments 

But seriously now, I am heavily invested into my headphone rig, but I recognize that I passed the point of diminishing returns and boarded the train to crazy town long ago. In a sense, I trained my ears to become more sensitive, which pulled my (financially allowable) point of diminishing returns higher and higher.

Depending where a person's ears are and what their financial situation is, the turning point must be flexible. My personal thoughts...

1) DACs his the point of diminishing returns the fastest. Stock motherboard stuff is generally pretty and at times is wildly audible just by playing frequency sweeps. A simple $50 external dac might be all a person will ever notice though. I'd say about $200 is the wall that most people will hit. There's perhaps anther plateau at about the $1k level, but having auditioned many dacs it becomes incredibly difficult to differentiate beyond there. I know people all spout about "source first", but I think above a certain point that doesn't hold anymore and money is better spent at the other end of the chain. In an overall sense, not counting when you're in crazytown, the dac should be the cheapest part of the system. Dacs should in theory all sound more alike than not.

2) I feel amps are in the middle ground. Personally I feel the Bryston 2B on the used market in the 400-500 dollar mark is one of the best price to performance amps you can get. Above that... I'd say you're wiggling into $3k amps (new) before. In terms of sonics, while I felt dacs should be more the same than not, I feel like amps have more flexibility to impart their sonic signatures.

3) On speakers/headphones/transducers, I firmly believe that the majority of your money should be spent here. The only exception here being if you're in crazytown and are perfectly settled on what you currently have and want to burn money on the rest of the chain. The transducers undeniably have the greatest impact on sound and money should be spent accordingly. Now with headphones, I'd say the first cutoff is just sub of $100, and after that your next plateau is around $300. Above that, there are your planar options right at $1k, and I honestly don't feel that any of the options above that are really worth it. I won't comment on speaker pricing at this time

4) power conditioners: fuzzy realm, but I always say just stick with a nice solid surge protector ($40-50) and don't go crazy unless you legitimately have power issues or want extra functionality like sequential powerups etc

5) cables: haha... I'll just say don't get the cheapest, get something with solid construction and proper shielding and geometry, maybe spend the extra few bucks if you want something that looks nice... but money should only go here if you've already spent good money on everything else. I honestly believe that the point of diminishing returns is... at most $20 a cable. I don't want to debate it beyond that.

[Pundamilia]

2017 marks the 50th anniversary of my first "hi-fi", a Dynaco SCA-35 amp, a Dual turntable and a pair of speakers that I got fleeced by the dealer for. Since then, I have been working my way up, changing a component every few years (the beauty of components!), until I have almost reached Nirvana with my Bryston setup. I think I am now approaching the point of diminishing returns, particularly given the price of some components today.

The irony of it all is that when you reach the age where you have shed a lot of the financial responsibilities (i.e. no mortgage, kids in university, etc.) and you can finally afford the good stuff, your hearing has begun the long downward slide. So, you have a few years to enjoy the ultimate fruits of your expensive hobby and then they put you in a nursing home, where you can't play loud music through loudspeakers.  

[Russell Dawkins]

The irony of it all is that when you reach the age where you have shed a lot of the financial responsibilities (i.e. no mortgage, kids in university, etc.) and you can finally afford the good stuff, your hearing has begun the long downward slide. So, you have a few years to enjoy the ultimate fruits of your expensive hobby and then they put you in a nursing home, where you can't play loud music through loudspeakers.  

I guess the current explosion in headphone design and development suggests that when you need headphones for the nursing home (in 15-20 years?), there will be a good choice!

[witchdoctor]

This is an interesting topic that I recently discussed with an audio buddy.  Some of us that are into audio place much more focus on the music and less on the equipment.  Good music is good music, right?  Sure better gear will reveal more, but at what expense?  My system, which is mostly Bryston, has a grand total retail of $25,000.  Honestly, I feel like diminishing returns kicked in a long time for me.  I probably reached that point fairly quickly due to having the luxury of a fully acoustically treated dedicated room.  I've been into high end audio for over a dozen years, and it's interesting to look back at all the components I have had over the years.  Some gave truly phenomenal performance and required me to spend a great deal more for only slightly better performance.  In retrospect, I question if those small percentage increase where really worth it, or would a double blind comparison offered a different outcome.   

Interested in hearing where others are in their audio journey.  Thought?

I think out of all my purchases the biggest bang for the buck upgrade was going from 2 channel to surround and then from surround to 3D audio. Anyone with a pair of ears could hear the improvements in a double blind test. Once I achieved 3D audio diminsihing returns have kicked in so much I won't have the uprade bug for at least 3 years assuming there is a 4D audio by then .

[witchdoctor]

My point of diminishing returns is softly defined by my mortgage payments 

But seriously now, I am heavily invested into my headphone rig, but I recognize that I passed the point of diminishing returns and boarded the train to crazy town long ago. In a sense, I trained my ears to become more sensitive, which pulled my (financially allowable) point of diminishing returns higher and higher.

Depending where a person's ears are and what their financial situation is, the turning point must be flexible. My personal thoughts...

1) DACs his the point of diminishing returns the fastest. Stock motherboard stuff is generally pretty and at times is wildly audible just by playing frequency sweeps. A simple $50 external dac might be all a person will ever notice though. I'd say about $200 is the wall that most people will hit. There's perhaps anther plateau at about the $1k level, but having auditioned many dacs it becomes incredibly difficult to differentiate beyond there. I know people all spout about "source first", but I think above a certain point that doesn't hold anymore and money is better spent at the other end of the chain. In an overall sense, not counting when you're in crazytown, the dac should be the cheapest part of the system. Dacs should in theory all sound more alike than not.

2) I feel amps are in the middle ground. Personally I feel the Bryston 2B on the used market in the 400-500 dollar mark is one of the best price to performance amps you can get. Above that... I'd say you're wiggling into $3k amps (new) before. In terms of sonics, while I felt dacs should be more the same than not, I feel like amps have more flexibility to impart their sonic signatures.

3) On speakers/headphones/transducers, I firmly believe that the majority of your money should be spent here. The only exception here being if you're in crazytown and are perfectly settled on what you currently have and want to burn money on the rest of the chain. The transducers undeniably have the greatest impact on sound and money should be spent accordingly. Now with headphones, I'd say the first cutoff is just sub of $100, and after that your next plateau is around $300. Above that, there are your planar options right at $1k, and I honestly don't feel that any of the options above that are really worth it. I won't comment on speaker pricing at this time

4) power conditioners: fuzzy realm, but I always say just stick with a nice solid surge protector ($40-50) and don't go crazy unless you legitimately have power issues or want extra functionality like sequential powerups etc

5) cables: haha... I'll just say don't get the cheapest, get something with solid construction and proper shielding and geometry, maybe spend the extra few bucks if you want something that looks nice... but money should only go here if you've already spent good money on everything else. I honestly believe that the point of diminishing returns is... at most $20 a cable. I don't want to debate it beyond that.

I have good news, cables and power conditioning can provide leaps of improvement in everything else you have purchased. There are many good cable vendors here, just go ask one of them. Dave at Zenwave is a straight shooter.

[Elizabeth]

I would want to offer a rebuttal to Armaegis.
Maybe back in 1965 I would agree on most of his points...
In between then and now I have had better and worse bits in my system. Some parts created what seemed like magic. Some left me wondering what went wrong.
My last big system wide upgrade expenditure in 2010 really changed my perceptions.
Adding $5,000+ a pop Bryston components, and an expensive conditioner mattered.
Now I can hear the difference in powercords and interconnects. Where before... no way.

My latest purchases, of a pair of interconnects at $3,000, and another two pair for $2,400 really changed the game.
And I totally have to say, without the expensive other parts, the $5,000 worth of IC would have been a total waste. And I would never encourage anyone to spend a lot on cables..

And the thing of 'diminishing returns'. True. a basic system bought used, cheap can certainly make music.
If I did not have the money, I guess I would be happy with such.

[Photon46]

I agree with Elizabeth's perspective. I think trying to value in audio components on a piecemeal basis misleads us. Depending on system context, component synergy, listener sensitivity and tastes, value propositions are a moving target that always relative. Things like power conditioners and expensive cables are a waste of money in some contexts and indispensables in other system contexts. It's all so subjective that trying to pin things down anymore precisely than saying "there is a law of diminishing returns" becomes a waste of time.

The thing that really improved my contentedness with my system was the purchase of a used set of Tidal Piano Cera speakers and a Fathom F112 sub. While it was a major investment, it has pretty much eradicated "upgradeitis." I can appreciate the charms and virtues of any recording and somehow just listen through the limitations of any given recording, whether digital or analog. I've heard the Tidals with $100,000 amplifiers and $4000 amplifiers and I don't feel any lack in listening pleasure through the lesser priced amps. Sure, I hear the difference, but I can be content with where I'm at.

[witchdoctor]

Its funny how you can reach the point of diminishing returns without spending a lot of money in 2017. Technology has progressed so far in the last decade I think you are actually spending about 1/3 as much to get better SQ than 10 years ago and that trend is only going to improve.

[Armaegis]

This is why I tried to qualify my statement on cables with the statement "money should only go here if you've already spent good money on everything else". I'll leave it up to the individual on what that point of diminishing returns is, but I don't think anyone would disagree that buying a $1000 interconnect for $100 components would be just silly.

[Armaegis]

Its funny how you can reach the point of diminishing returns without spending a lot of money in 2017. Technology has progressed so far in the last decade I think you are actually spending about 1/3 as much to get better SQ than 10 years ago and that trend is only going to improve.

Partially true, but unfortunately there's is also a larger flood of junk that you have to sort through to find the good stuff.

Also, on the flip side I think there's a weird gap in the middle where "hifi" used to reside decades ago but has now climbed into stratospheric pricing.

[CanadianMaestro]

I'll leave it up to the individual on what that point of diminishing returns is, but I don't think anyone would disagree that buying a $1000 interconnect for $100 components would be just silly.

I agree. But who actually does that?? 

[Armaegis]

There was a bit of hyperbole in my statement... but I've seen people spend more on their interconnects than their speakers. I've seen people spend $300 in digital debuggers for a $100 dac rather than get a better dac. It's a silly world, and people miss for forest for the trees sometimes when they get swept up in hype.

[CanadianMaestro]

There was a bit of hyperbole in my statement... but I've seen people spend more on their interconnects than their speakers. I've seen people spend $300 in digital debuggers for a $100 dac rather than get a better dac. It's a silly world, and people miss for forest for the trees sometimes when they get swept up in hype.

Well, if a "better" DAC will cost them $1K or more, and they're not lawyers  , then maybe that's their main route to nirvana. I have friends who swear they don't need anything more than their Bose or Fiio players, even though they have the mean$ and have listened to better gear. Stubbornness.....

[Armaegis]

Some people literally can't tell. I fixed a speaker for my friends the other day because of a busted crossover which knocked out the woofer on one channel. They didn't even notice there was something wrong...

[witchdoctor]

This is why I tried to qualify my statement on cables with the statement "money should only go here if you've already spent good money on everything else". I'll leave it up to the individual on what that point of diminishing returns is, but I don't think anyone would disagree that buying a $1000 interconnect for $100 components would be just silly.

I have to disagree. I think money spent on a good power conditioner is a prequisite because you can get better SQ on every component that has to be plugged in. I have not tried my $1000 power cable on a $100 component but I do have one hooked up to a $500 PC and yes, I would put it head to head with a $3000 audiophile PC connected with a standard cable, it wouldn't even be a contest. But I digress, I am not recommending anyone do that. What I would recommend is buy a $100 wall socket and a $200+ power conditioner before you plug anything in. If you haven't done this first you are pissing money down the drain on everything else because you will not even begin to hear what those products are capable of. Check out this article;


http://mrgcustom.com/press/Electronic%20House%20Jan%202016%20Issue%20-%20MRG%20Theater.pdf

[witchdoctor]

There was a bit of hyperbole in my statement... but I've seen people spend more on their interconnects than their speakers. I've seen people spend $300 in digital debuggers for a $100 dac rather than get a better dac. It's a silly world, and people miss for forest for the trees sometimes when they get swept up in hype.

You should open a store and cater to your friends who buy this digital debugger stuff, you will get rich quickly

[witchdoctor]

Partially true, but unfortunately there's is also a larger flood of junk that you have to sort through to find the good stuff.

Also, on the flip side I think there's a weird gap in the middle where "hifi" used to reside decades ago but has now climbed into stratospheric pricing.

I think you can find bargains with the new active speakers, you don't even need a cable just blue tooth from the Klipsch Powered monitors at $300 to the Devialet Phantoms at $5K amazing bang for the buck.

[Armaegis]

Again, I do not want to get into a debate about cables or power conditioners. I'm just saying, if you're playing in the cheap 'n cheerful end of things, spend the majority of your money on the transducers, next on the amp, then next on the source, and minimal for everything else as long as it is functional and not a fire hazard. The exact ratios start wiggling the higher up your total system costs go, but the majority of your funds should still go into the transducer/amp/source chain rather than everything else.

That said, a solid surge protector is a wise investment to protect all your gear. You can get a nice Furman bar for $50, or a used SurgeX for under $200 online. That should be sufficient for most people until you start chasing the more esoteric stuff.