DAC for earbuds?

spencer · « **on:** 2 Feb 2017, 05:20 pm »

I spend most of my time at work listening to Spotify via my laptop. I have a decent set of Klipsch earbuds that I use (doubles for music and blocking out sounds from the people around me) and was curious if a DAC like dragonfly would noticeably improve sound, or is that asking too much from earbuds?

Thanks!
Spencer

Armaegis · « **Reply #1 on:** 2 Feb 2017, 06:05 pm »

It sort of comes down to how good the headphone jack on your laptop is (usually not great, but perhaps "good enough"). If you don't hear any distortion or grain coming from the laptop right now, the better use of money is always on the transducer first at this level.

Unless you can find an old used Dragonfly for $30 or something, in which case hey why not =)

spencer · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Feb 2017, 04:36 pm »

Thanks for the input

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Feb 2017, 04:51 pm »

I have 2 emotiva big ego dac's and they sound great-smooth, very analog sounding with no grain at all. It has an analog volume control that is controlled by your computer. It is built like a tank. The Emotiva little ego is similar and cheaper.

However, I can't argue with a used Dragonfly. I own an original DF and it does not even come close to the SQ of the Big Ego though.

Another option is the Schiit Fulla.

richidoo · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Feb 2017, 07:59 pm »

The SQ of the source ALWAYS matters, no matter the quality of downstream gear. Question is how much better is Dragonfly than your laptop? Probably noticeably better with ESS DAC and Audioquest design.

Don't make it TOO good, you won't get any work done!!

Armaegis · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Feb 2017, 08:08 pm »

Quote from: richidoo on 3 Feb 2017, 07:59 pm

The SQ of the source ALWAYS matters, no matter the quality of downstream gear. Question is how much better is Dragonfly than your laptop? Probably noticeably better with ESS DAC and Audioquest design.

Don't make it TOO good, you won't get any work done!!

In my experience, dacs hit the wall of diminishing returns far quicker than anything else. When you're on the lower end of the spectrum, spend the significant majority of your money on the headphone/speakers. Get a small combo dac/amp unit only if your existing source has noise or distortion issues (very possible on a laptop). Once you start climbing up though, the distribution of funds becomes a bit more even between headphone/amp/dac.

zacster · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Feb 2017, 08:18 pm »

I am listening to my laptop through a Dragonfly right now on my desktop system. It DOES make a difference. For $100 for a new one, why bother with used? And a used one is likely to be the older model. Mine is a DF Black. I also have the iPhone Camera adapter to use it on the go.

All that said, it will still only be as good as your earbuds. My Beyerdynamic DT1350 headphones are good enough that I hear a difference when I use those, especially at 24/96 with the DF.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Feb 2017, 09:14 pm »

Quote from: Armaegis on 3 Feb 2017, 08:08 pm

In my experience, dacs hit the wall of diminishing returns far quicker than anything else. When you're on the lower end of the spectrum, spend the significant majority of your money on the headphone/speakers. Get a small combo dac/amp unit only if your existing source has noise or distortion issues (very possible on a laptop). Once you start climbing up though, the distribution of funds becomes a bit more even between headphone/amp/dac.

I don't necessarily agree with this. I have heard the following DAC's and they all sound completely different- PSA DSD, Luxman DA-06, T and A DAC8, Hugo, Marantz NA-11s1, Cary Audio 200T, Wyred 4S DSDse, Auralic Vega, Exogal Comet, a Lampizator, Bryston BDA1, Original DF, Emotiva Big Ego, AVA Ultra II, IFI and Grant Fidelity DAC 11. Most of these were in my system with the exception of the Vega, Bryston and T and A. These all sound remarkably different. I think that the rest of your system must be resolving enough to hear the differences.

Armaegis · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Feb 2017, 11:19 pm »

I don't want to get into a debate about the "source first" thing, but I think we can all agree that if you're running a $60 earbud, it doesn't make sense to spend $100 on a dac. I think we can also all agree that dacs in general provide more subtle differences compared to changing the speaker/headphone.

Now so far Spencer has not told us what he's listening through. If it's a $40 Klipsch S4, then I'd say spend the money on something higher up. If it's an X20i, ok then spending money on a dac/amp would be fine.

richidoo · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Feb 2017, 01:10 am »

I don't think that certain component prices should be proportional to each other. But in this case it's not out of proportion anyway... $6000 speakers are not out of place among $10,000 electronics. I think the Klipsch buds will be able to hear difference between laptop jack and Dragonfly. Maybe not all the charms the Dragonfly has to offer, but then the kind of headphones that can hear all the pros and cons of Dragonfly probably deserves something higher up the food chain.

I've finally learned (the hard way) what more experienced people were telling me a decade ago... that a skewed source can cause you to steer off course and waste time and money in frustration. So I value the source higher than speakers (or earbuds) now. My 2 cents...

jtwrace · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Feb 2017, 01:20 am »

Quote from: spencer on 2 Feb 2017, 05:20 pm

I spend most of my time at work listening to Spotify via my laptop. I have a decent set of Klipsch earbuds that I use (doubles for music and blocking out sounds from the people around me) and was curious if a DAC like dragonfly would noticeably improve sound, or is that asking too much from earbuds?

Thanks!
Spencer

No idea how the Klipsch sounds but I got a DragonFly Red and am beyond impressed. It's stellar!

Armaegis · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Feb 2017, 07:04 pm »

Quote from: richidoo on 4 Feb 2017, 01:10 am

I don't think that certain component prices should be proportional to each other. But in this case it's not out of proportion anyway... $6000 speakers are not out of place among $10,000 electronics. I think the Klipsch buds will be able to hear difference between laptop jack and Dragonfly. Maybe not all the charms the Dragonfly has to offer, but then the kind of headphones that can hear all the pros and cons of Dragonfly probably deserves something higher up the food chain.

I've finally learned (the hard way) what more experienced people were telling me a decade ago... that a skewed source can cause you to steer off course and waste time and money in frustration. So I value the source higher than speakers (or earbuds) now. My 2 cents...

I understand the importance of source, but how I allocate the budget depends on the total size of the budget. So if I were in the ballpark of $100 for a total system, I would spend the whole thing on the headphones and just run them off my phone or laptop. Up to a $200-300, I would still only spend about 25% on a combo dac/amp and call it a day. Nowadays my headphone rig is worth a few grand, and my ratios have flipped with only about a quarter of the budget on the headphone itself.

spencer · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Feb 2017, 09:24 pm »

Wow, quite the debate! The headphones in question are the s4i. I also have sennheiser hd 555's at home. I was came across the Micca OriGen+ or e10k that looks interesting. Might be worth checking out to see if it makes a difference at work. At worst I use it at home with the 555's or on the main system since I enjoy using spotify on the main system (which will be upgraded later this year).

Armaegis · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Feb 2017, 09:51 pm »

Neither of those is bad by any means, and yeah you can probably hear a bit of difference with a $100 dac/amp... but I would sooner save up and get a $200 headphone instead for more sound improvement per $$ spent.

The HD555 does like to have a bit more juice however, and the impedance swing in the midbass does demand an amp with suitably low output impedance and headroom.

I still stand by my original statement: If you can get an old Dragonfly or something similar for $40 bucks or so, then sure it doesn't hurt. If you're going higher than that, reconsider the budget and upgrade the cans first and followup with a dac/amp later.

p.s. yank out the tape in the grill of the 555 to do the defacto upgrade to the 595

spencer · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Feb 2017, 10:04 pm »

Thanks for the replies! When I bought the s4i's they were 100$, but I see them for like 35$ now. Sigh. I really like the ear bud form factor for work due being able to block out the rest of the office, plus I use them as an ear plug when on conference calls. I have thought about taking the 555's to work, but the noise level would ruin them.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Feb 2017, 03:06 am »

Quote from: Armaegis on 3 Feb 2017, 08:08 pm

In my experience, dacs hit the wall of diminishing returns far quicker than anything else.

True, especially with the original hypothesis of Spotify- the 320K bit rate sets the upper cap on HQ so going past a Modi, Dragonfly, or ODAC is probably a waste of money if that is going to be the source.

jarcher · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Feb 2017, 05:26 am »

Quote from: Armaegis on 3 Feb 2017, 11:19 pm

I don't want to get into a debate about the "source first" thing, but I think we can all agree that if you're running a $60 earbud, it doesn't make sense to spend $100 on a dac. I think we can also all agree that dacs in general provide more subtle differences compared to changing the speaker

Sorry - don't agree with any of that - and I'm not a "source firster". But are you a headphone / speaker first-er?

And for an AQDF black we're talking $100 - even $8 ear buds are going to sound better through that then out of a laptop sound card.

Seems like we're all over thinking this one.

Armaegis · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Feb 2017, 04:28 pm »

Quote from: jarcher on 10 Feb 2017, 05:26 am

Sorry - don't agree with any of that - and I'm not a "source firster". But are you a headphone / speaker first-er?

And for an AQDF black we're talking $100 - even $8 ear buds are going to sound better through that then out of a laptop sound card.

Seems like we're all over thinking this one.

For someone just starting out with a modest setup, I'm a "headphone first-er" assuming you have something better than the stock laptop jack in the first place, but it doesn't take much.

If I had $110 to spend on a setup, I would not buy an AQDF then pair it with $8 buds. I would grab something like a FiiO K1 or whatever cheap dac/amp I could find for $25, and put all of the rest into the headphone.

Now since Spencer already has the Klipsch S4i and Senn HD555, spending a bit on a dac/amp is fine, but I really wouldn't go any higher than $100 for it. Finding a used Dragonfly or somesuch for $50 is doable. Unless he were planning to upgrade the headphones down the road as well, in which case spend a bit more and plan your upgrade path accordingly.

In practice this all gets tossed out the window anyways, because most of the time we just buy whatever we happen to find a super good deal on

spencer · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Feb 2017, 05:23 pm »

I did some reading over at head-fi forums and it appears that spending money on better buds (IEMs) might be the way to go first for since this is where the bulk of my listening time comes from, and I think this is where I may notice the biggest difference in quality.

If I was using headphones at work, I would go for a DAC. There are many reasons why I don't use headphones at work.

Thanks for the great input.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Feb 2017, 05:32 pm »

Have to agree that there is often a strategy, but in the end execution is so often shifted by opportunity.

I did not intend to end up with MSRP $500 iems out of a phone. But a great deal came along, and here I am. As a result I am now reviewing an iFi dac/headamp.

The cycle continues!

Good luck to the OP.