[m_canada]

I've got a new BP6 in home for a demo, but I'm having a hard time identifying sonic differences between it and my Anthem MRX 710. My system consists of Dynaudio X14, 2xParadigm monitor 12 subs, Bryston BDA-2, 2.5b3, BIT-15. My source is a Sonos connect through optical to the BDA-2 to the BP6 CD input. I'm using it to stream Tidal Hifi.  To compare the Anthem MRX 710 analog performance, I connected it through the BP6 tape loop and matched the level. I can include/bypass the MRX loop by flipping the tape/normal switch. I can't really hear much difference. What should I be listening for?  I've read that the MRX is good at analog, but I expected it to degrade the signal at least a little bit. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to demo this preamp?

[CanadianMaestro]

My immediate inclination is simply: Don't second-guess your own listening experiences.

It is what it is. Keep the amp that makes you tap your feet more often when listening to your fav tunes. 

[vegasdave]

I've got a new BP6 in home for a demo, but I'm having a hard time identifying sonic differences between it and my Anthem MRX 710. My system consists of Dynaudio X14, 2xParadigm monitor 12 subs, Bryston BDA-2, 2.5b3, BIT-15. My source is a Sonos connect through optical to the BDA-2 to the BP6 CD input. I'm using it to stream Tidal Hifi.  To compare the Anthem MRX 710 analog performance, I connected it through the BP6 tape loop and matched the level. I can include/bypass the MRX loop by flipping the tape/normal switch. I can't really hear much difference. What should I be listening for?  I've read that the MRX is good at analog, but I expected it to degrade the signal at least a little bit. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to demo this preamp?

hmm that's odd...the reason i bought the bp6 because it was in fact better sounding to me than the fm acoustics preamp i had. yes, you read that right, fm acoustics which was 3 times the price of the bp6. i paid 7k for that unit back in early '93. the bp6 was around 2k with phono. i then sold the fm, and got the bryston and never looked back. the point is, is that sometimes the holy grails like fm acoustics, boulder, soulution, etc, aren't so holy...i picked bryston and saved thousands...

[m_canada]

hmm that's odd...the reason i bought the bp6 because it was in fact better sounding to me than the fm acoustics preamp i had. yes, you read that right, fm acoustics which was 3 times the price of the bp6. i paid 7k for that unit back in early '93. the bp6 was around 2k with phono. i then sold the fm, and got the bryston and never looked back. the point is, is that sometimes the holy grails like fm acoustics, boulder, soulution, etc, aren't so holy...i picked bryston and saved thousands...

I'm a bit confused too.  There are many people who say that a good quality dedicated preamp will stomp most AVRs, but I don't hear that when flipping the AVR in and out of the loop.  I'm wondering if maybe my speakers aren't revealing enough, if my music selection isn't the best for revealing the differences, or maybe I'm not listening loud enough?  I think my MRX AVR volume was usually set around -30 for most music and a friend said that he usually listens much louder when I had him over to listen to my system a while back.  I've been listening to a lot of pop, light rock and female vocal music and a bit of classical (cello or orchestral).  It sounds quite nice, but it sounded nice before the preamp was added as well.

[James Tanner]

I'm a bit confused too.  There are many people who say that a good quality dedicated preamp will stomp most AVRs, but I don't hear that when flipping the AVR in and out of the loop.  I'm wondering if maybe my speakers aren't revealing enough, if my music selection isn't the best for revealing the differences, or maybe I'm not listening loud enough?  I think my MRX AVR volume was usually set around -30 for most music and a friend said that he usually listens much louder when I had him over to listen to my system a while back.  I've been listening to a lot of pop, light rock and female vocal music and a bit of classical (cello or orchestral).  It sounds quite nice, but it sounded nice before the preamp was added as well.

Hi M

I generally say to our customers "when you stop hearing a difference (better sound) stop spending money".

james

[Tone Depth]

Very practical advice!

Hi M

I generally say to our customers "when you stop hearing a difference (better sound) stop spending money".

james

[Armaegis]

Hi M

I generally say to our customers "when you stop hearing a difference (better sound) stop spending money".

james

No no no, instead spend the money on music, food, and your favourite vices.

[CanadianMaestro]

  I've been listening to a lot of pop, light rock and female vocal music and a bit of classical (cello or orchestral).  It sounds quite nice, but it sounded nice before the preamp was added as well.

Count yourself fortunate. Now you don't need to obsess over finding a preamp.

You can just settle back and enjoy the musik.   

[vegasdave]

Hi M

I generally say to our customers "when you stop hearing a difference (better sound) stop spending money".

james

there you go, sound advice. pun intended!

[gtaphile]

I'm a bit confused too.  There are many people who say that a good quality dedicated preamp will stomp most AVRs, but I don't hear that when flipping the AVR in and out of the loop.  I'm wondering if maybe my speakers aren't revealing enough, if my music selection isn't the best for revealing the differences, or maybe I'm not listening loud enough?  I think my MRX AVR volume was usually set around -30 for most music and a friend said that he usually listens much louder when I had him over to listen to my system a while back.  I've been listening to a lot of pop, light rock and female vocal music and a bit of classical (cello or orchestral).  It sounds quite nice, but it sounded nice before the preamp was added as well.

Are you at peace?

If not then borrow a better quality source of music (BDP-2 for example) and connect that via AES/EBU to the BDA -2). If you don't hear a difference then you will be at peace.   

[m_canada]

Are you at peace?

If not then borrow a better quality source of music (BDP-2 for example) and connect that via AES/EBU to the BDA -2). If you don't hear a difference then you will be at peace.

Peace?  No, I'm far from it. The fact that I can't hear a difference doesn't sit well with me. Everything (schematics, reviews, measurements, common sense) tells me the Bryston should perform better, but I just can't hear it yet. I've tried headphones and listening to it louder. I identified some tricky passages in a few tracks and couldn't identify a difference.  I have downloaded the "how to listen" program from Harmon and will see if that helps me figure out what to listen for. I also have a few more things to try. I did my streaming over USB from my PC and can try some different CDs. I don't think borrowing a BDP is an option, but I could look into it. My initial thought is that the difference should be readily apparent, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with testing higher end equipment.

[CanadianMaestro]

Peace?  No, I'm far from it. The fact that I can't hear a difference doesn't sit well with me.   My initial thought is that the difference should be readily apparent, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with testing higher end equipment.

Why? If one can't believe one's own ears.....

I don't think faulty gear/connections are to blame. If anything, you would definitely hear differences if the Bryston amp or any other part of your audio chain was faulty.

The other possibility is that your system is at its maximum level of resolution, and so the Bryston amp can't improve on SQ any further. At least the SQ hasn't degraded.

Maybe it's time to consider upgrading other parts of your system. 

[schmidtmike76]

At the risk of being unpopular you need a proper source.  Neither of those will fully test your system.  I would be looking into a Pi for your BDA-2.  If nothing else a good CD player. I have tidal hifi and I would as perspective rate it a 6/10 for sound quality vs my Pi at a 10/10 for its price point.

[zoom25]

Peace?  No, I'm far from it. The fact that I can't hear a difference doesn't sit well with me. Everything (schematics, reviews, measurements, common sense) tells me the Bryston should perform better, but I just can't hear it yet. I've tried headphones and listening to it louder. I identified some tricky passages in a few tracks and couldn't identify a difference.  I have downloaded the "how to listen" program from Harmon and will see if that helps me figure out what to listen for. I also have a few more things to try. I did my streaming over USB from my PC and can try some different CDs. I don't think borrowing a BDP is an option, but I could look into it. My initial thought is that the difference should be readily apparent, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with testing higher end equipment.

People here know me for doing testing digital formats, digital cables, storage devices. Sometimes it's easy. Other times it's hard. These are subtle things. I've spent many hours doing these kinds of tests and have developed a mentality on how to approach it.

The biggest factor in this may actually be "TIME." Spend an extended time (a few hours to few days) listening to one particular setup without any changes or pressure on yourself. Don't bother focusing on particular details. Just feel the music and listen overall. No need to actively hyper focus on details, otherwise, it may actually end up doing more harm. Over a period of time, you'll automatically get used to the sound and develop a realistic sound profile.

Then, go and try out the other component and see if you notice a difference. If not, try to listen to that second component for an extended period of time as well. After that, feel free to do A/B. I like doing 1-2 songs uninterrupted and then changing things. When the time interval is too short, it may be useless doing A/B. Trust your judgement on the macro side of things.

Time is your best friend. Your ears are almost always 100% ready. It's your brain that you have to factor in, and that takes time. Good Luck!

[m_canada]

People here know me for doing testing digital formats, digital cables, storage devices. Sometimes it's easy. Other times it's hard. These are subtle things. I've spent many hours doing these kinds of tests and have developed a mentality on how to approach it.

The biggest factor in this may actually be "TIME." Spend an extended time (a few hours to few days) listening to one particular setup without any changes or pressure on yourself. Don't bother focusing on particular details. Just feel the music and listen overall. No need to actively hyper focus on details, otherwise, it may actually end up doing more harm. Over a period of time, you'll automatically get used to the sound and develop a realistic sound profile.

Then, go and try out the other component and see if you notice a difference. If not, try to listen to that second component for an extended period of time as well. After that, feel free to do A/B. I like doing 1-2 songs uninterrupted and then changing things. When the time interval is too short, it may be useless doing A/B. Trust your judgement on the macro side of things.

Time is your best friend. Your ears are almost always 100% ready. It's your brain that you have to factor in, and that takes time. Good Luck!

This is the sort of info I'm looking for.  I want figure out how to set things up and how to compare the sound to make sure I'm just not missing something. Thank you for taking the time and for the encouragement.

[vegasdave]

i'd say the bp6 is the sleeper in the entire bryston preamp line. this is because it's very transparent, dynamic as well as reliable and functional all the way. the mm stage is superb...my records just come alive with it! also, it punches way above the retail price. in addition it has a good amount of features too. the only draw back is that it's all single ended. so, there you go...it's the little preamp that could!

[witchdoctor]

At the risk of being unpopular you need a proper source.  Neither of those will fully test your system.  I would be looking into a Pi for your BDA-2.  If nothing else a good CD player. I have tidal hifi and I would as perspective rate it a 6/10 for sound quality vs my Pi at a 10/10 for its price point.

I am getting such great SQ using MQA through Tidal via my PC I am very tempted to try Pi. I am done with dacs until I see where hirez streaming goes after Napster and Pandora launch it too. Once Roon starts software decoding MQA will you be able to stream it via Pi?
Any big difference between Pi and BDP 1 for streaming SQ?

[zoom25]

This is the sort of info I'm looking for.  I want figure out how to set things up and how to compare the sound to make sure I'm just not missing something. Thank you for taking the time and for the encouragement.

No problem. Take your time and don't get too worked up.

As some of the previous posters said, I would also look at better sources other than Sonos. While I haven't tried the Sonos, I have tried similar devices like Apple TV, PS3, IPTV box, Samsung TV and their optical outs. Honestly, not the best thing to feed your BDA with. If you have a Mac, I can definitely help you out with various softwares that will provide really good quality. The best option would be trying a BDP-1/2 outputting via AES into your BDA-2...This time I can guarantee you that you'll hear a noticeable difference in sound between the Sonos and BDP-1/2.

If you can use a computer program (Foobar2000 / Jriver / Audirvana Plus) in the meantime and download a few (5-6) albums in lossless quality of various material and genre. Hopefully all the albums have some kind of vocals. I use hip-hop, jazz, rap, pop, soundtrack music. This music serves two purposes: mid-range and bass.

I've found with good pre-amps and other equipment that can maintain signal integrity, the deep bass sounds more bold and really holds on with impact and doesn't get loose. The vocals are the most telling about the system as it's the place where humans are the most sensitive in hearing differences. I am not going to get into the evolution of why and how that developed...but trust me. Pay attention to vocals. It's a cheat code in assessing gear. Listen for transparency, texture, where the vocals float in the mix. Listen for the attack, trails, reverbs on drums/bass and vocals.

The reason why I said download music is because I have found the best sound quality comes from local file playback, especially when the device or software can pre-load the music in advance and thus avoiding real time conversion (which is good for the sound). I can do this on Audirvana Plus on Mac and with BDP-1/2 players. The streaming coming from a device like Sonos and then through optical isn't something I'd use for serious testing.

The file format should be something lossless. FLAC or WAV works well. I personally try to run everything WAV when possible.

Also, a whole another thing to consider is speaker placement and room treatment. I'm not sure if you have room treatment? That would make your system sound exceptional. Also, speaker placement can actually be more trickier than one might imagine. If you can post a pic, I and others can definitely help you out.

Out of the several speaker/monitor placement manuals and books I've read, this one by Genelec seems the most straight-forward with lot of important concepts that absolutely must not be ignored.

http://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/Studio%20monitors/Catalogues/genelec_monitor_setup_guide_2015.pdf

Read this thoroughly and you just might pick up one or two new things that you might have not known before. There is a lot of material here to digest here. Work at your own pace and I'm CERTAIN by the end you'll have a system that sounds a lot better than it does now. I personally love to do free tweaks based on knowledge that can drastically improve my experience rather than throwing money at the problem.

[m_canada]

No problem. Take your time and don't get too worked up.

As some of the previous posters said, I would also look at better sources other than Sonos. While I haven't tried the Sonos, I have tried similar devices like Apple TV, PS3, IPTV box, Samsung TV and their optical outs. Honestly, not the best thing to feed your BDA with. If you have a Mac, I can definitely help you out with various softwares that will provide really good quality. The best option would be trying a BDP-1/2 outputting via AES into your BDA-2...This time I can guarantee you that you'll hear a noticeable difference in sound between the Sonos and BDP-1/2.

If you can use a computer program (Foobar2000 / Jriver / Audirvana Plus) in the meantime and download a few (5-6) albums in lossless quality of various material and genre. Hopefully all the albums have some kind of vocals. I use hip-hop, jazz, rap, pop, soundtrack music. This music serves two purposes: mid-range and bass.

I've found with good pre-amps and other equipment that can maintain signal integrity, the deep bass sounds more bold and really holds on with impact and doesn't get loose. The vocals are the most telling about the system as it's the place where humans are the most sensitive in hearing differences. I am not going to get into the evolution of why and how that developed...but trust me. Pay attention to vocals. It's a cheat code in assessing gear. Listen for transparency, texture, where the vocals float in the mix. Listen for the attack, trails, reverbs on drums/bass and vocals.

The reason why I said download music is because I have found the best sound quality comes from local file playback, especially when the device or software can pre-load the music in advance and thus avoiding real time conversion (which is good for the sound). I can do this on Audirvana Plus on Mac and with BDP-1/2 players. The streaming coming from a device like Sonos and then through optical isn't something I'd use for serious testing.

The file format should be something lossless. FLAC or WAV works well. I personally try to run everything WAV when possible.

Also, a whole another thing to consider is speaker placement and room treatment. I'm not sure if you have room treatment? That would make your system sound exceptional. Also, speaker placement can actually be more trickier than one might imagine. If you can post a pic, I and others can definitely help you out.

Out of the several speaker/monitor placement manuals and books I've read, this one by Genelec seems the most straight-forward with lot of important concepts that absolutely must not be ignored.

http://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/Studio%20monitors/Catalogues/genelec_monitor_setup_guide_2015.pdf

Read this thoroughly and you just might pick up one or two new things that you might have not known before. There is a lot of material here to digest here. Work at your own pace and I'm CERTAIN by the end you'll have a system that sounds a lot better than it does now. I personally love to do free tweaks based on knowledge that can drastically improve my experience rather than throwing money at the problem.

Ok, I've downloaded JRiver and am feeding the USB to my BDA-2. I'll just listen to the BP6 for a while and then switch back. Thanks for the tips on program material.  I've pulled out a few CDs to listen to.

I've attached an image of my listening setup. I don't have much treatment other than acoustic tiles for the ceiling with Roxul Safe and Sound in the joists and the pillows on a chair at the first reflection on the side of the room with the close wall.

[zoom25]

JRiver - That's a good first start. I personally haven't used JRiver, so you might want to drop by other forums on how to get the most out of JRiver and its setting. If you are on a Mac, I would also recommend trying Audirvana Plus's free trial, and I could help you out with that.


Pillow - The pillow isn't really going to do much. On the other hand, if you have a mattress nearby. Try putting that up in the first reflection point(s) or the wall behind you. Now that will make a huge difference right away. Coverage and depth are both key with treatment. I've convinced a few people of what proper treatment can do by getting them to bring all their various mattresses for a test and lining them up against the wall at first reflection points and back wall. Their mouths literally dropped when the image became so tight and they could really hear each base note so clearly. Sure it can be a heavy and time consuming process, but its typically the best and cheapest way to really give them a taste of what treatment can accomplish. This also varies with how thick and what material the mattress is made of.

Height - The height of the speakers in relation to your ears as well as the ceiling/floor height seem fine. Nothing to worry about there.


Distance from back wall - The speakers seem fine. Sure, you might be getting some bass boost and possibly some loss of imaging, but at least no obvious hole in bass FR which you get when the speakers are between that 1-2 m spot. It obviously varies from room to room. Knowing how long your room is would definitely help with seeing if it's possible to get them far away from the back wall that the bass cancellation is well below the speaker's range. Google the term 'Speaker Boundary Interference Response' for further discussion. Not to mention, the PDF I previously linked is very helpful. It's worth the read-through.


Speaker distance width - If you already don't know, you should contact Dynaudio how far apart you can use those speakers. The waveguide and overall design make a difference in deciding the optimum distance. If you have them too far apart, you'll get good imaging on the sides, but a week phantom centre. You should ideally have a nice soundstage curve and balance between the centre and sides. If I had to guess, I think they might be slightly too far apart.


Toe-in - Also, contact Dynaudio and ask if they were designed with toe-in mind or not. You can of course go by ear.


Symmetry - Since I can't see the left side of the room, I hope both your speakers are equal distance from the sidewall. From what is visible, I can already tell the right speaker is too close to the wall. You'll need some treatment there for sure.

If you have been using this setup for a long time, then moving your speakers might feel really weird at first. Also, hopefully your subs are setup correctly with your speakers? You might actually want to try listening without the subs at some point during your evaluation. It could yield more clearer results. Countless time I've seen mixing/mastering guys have subs which they eventually use less and less because of the problems they can create if not setup extremely well.

You've got a lot of options and variables to work around with. It's definitely going to take some time to tweak, but you should have fun doing it. It's free and you get to learn more about the capabilities of your system. Know that all your gear is already superb and take comfort in that. It's all about maximizing what you have with the correct knowledge and taking your time to appreciate the changes. The only place I wholeheartedly wouldn't hesitate to recommend spending money is acoustic treatment. I guarantee you being blowing away. No upgrade in pre-amps, cables or other thing will come CLOSE to when your room sounds proper with low reverberation time. Once you get used to treated room sound, going back and listening to other untreated rooms, you simply won't be interested.