[IanVan]

I currently have 2 different modestly priced 2-channel systems set up in in my house in different rooms. I've been comparing the 2 with the same tracks at similar volumes, and the difference in sounds from the systems really surprises me.  I do not understand why.

System 1:
13'x14' room with area rug, 9' ceiling. Speaker 32" off rear and side walls. Speakers 9' apart. Ears 8-9' from line between speakers.

Dunlavy SCII speakers.
Creek 4330 integrated amp.
Cambridge Audio D500 CD player.

System 2:
Large (26' x 20' at extremes), oddly shaped room with high sloping ceiling. Hardwood floors, lots of windows. Clearly a 'bright' room. Speakers are placed out into the middle of the room, way off the walls.  Speakers are 6' apart, with ears about 7' from line between speakers. Speakers are on heavy 43" pro audio stands with Auralex foam and tipped slightly down towards listener.

GMA Europa monitors.
Panasonic XR45 amp.
NEC CDR-602 transport, digital coax output.

Both use Canare speaker wire and interconnects.


One of these systems offers a much more enveloping, visceral 'WOW' experience than the other when played at moderately high volumes. I cannot figure out if components need replacing in the other system, or if the room differences account for the dramatic sound differences.

Any ideas?

Thanks a lot.

[shokunin]

Can you move the "wow" system into the other room and see if you still get the same impression.  If so, maybe those components are a better match for your taste.   The room also plays a large part, but if you can swap you'd be able to tell what each room is doing.

[warnerwh]

Room effect is huge, more than most realize. Swap just the speakers and be sure to put them in the exact locations best you can. You'll find they sound totally different in the different rooms.

[audioengr]

Why dont you just swap the individual pieces around and identify the weak ones this way?

[jermmd]

I have to ask. Which is the wow system?

Joe M.

[Red Dragon Audio]

Can you move the "wow" system into the other room and see if you still get the same impression.  If so, maybe those components are a better match for your taste.   The room also plays a large part, but if you can swap you'd be able to tell what each room is doing.

I agree with shokunin on this point.  Take the wow system into the other room and see if it still gives you goosebumps or not.  If not, then you can probably attribute it to the room...but if so...well then it is a problem with the other system not having that wow factor.

Look on the bright side: You have one system you really enjoy and one that is lackluster.  Many folks are sadly stuck with the latter and it's their only setup.

[Zero]

Someone mine as well say it---

Typically in audio, when you get two systems, this effect your experiencing is very common.  There is nothing inherently wrong, except perhaps the room.  Other then that, its a simple matter of component synergy, taste, and quality. Im guessing number 2 system is the "wow" system.

I hate to say it, but thats just how this audio gig works.

[IanVan]

I have to ask. Which is the wow system?
Joe M.

The surprising thing (to me at least) is that the Creek/Cambridge/Dunlavy is the 'WOW' system. It was put together on a budget 4-5 years ago (2nd hand speakers) and really does sound terrific. (It sounded even better in my old house, where I could stretch the speakers even further apart, to almost 14 feet. Something about widening the Dunlavy's opens up an unbelievable enveloping sound. Dunlavy was adamant about putting his speakers along the long wall.)  The second system was put together about 10 months ago, and after tons of room positioning tweaking I still cannot get the same sounds as from my original system.

Laziness is the main reason I haven't moved components back and forth yet to determine whats causing the big sonic disparity. The amp/cdp on the WOW system are on a very heavy rack that also holds a thousand CDs and 600 records, and I can not get at the back of the electronics without a major undertaking. Its obvious I am not a tweaker. I like to set things up so they sound good, then leave them alone and listen to music. However, I am presently listening to music 5-7 hours a day on the non-so-perfect system, and I am desperate to bring it up to the sound of my first system.

I think I'll start by moving the Europas to the WOW setup/room, and see if they give the same experience as the Dunlavy's.  Then I'll try the panny/NEC with the Dunlavy's in the good room. If both those sound good, I'll know its the room.

[Red Dragon Audio]

I love Jeff Buckley's albums.  "My Sweetheart the Drunk" is a great 2disc set and I like the rawness of the second disc.  It's too bad he passed away so young.

Good luck IanVan with getting things right.

[Zero]

Well aint I just red in the face.  

I do look foward to reading your impressions when you decide to switch some gear around.  I still stick to the one statement though - different gear, different sound, and sometimes (as I just proved a great shining example of), its not as you expected.

Sean

[Mad DOg]

in addition to what has already been mentioned, here's something else to consider...big rooms require big speakers to properly "charge"...therefore bookshelf speakers seldom have the ability to "pressurize" the room to provide that "wow" factor

[Hantra]

Well aint I just red in the face.  

I guessed the same.  I never thought the 4330 could drive any Dunlavys.  

Ian have you followed the Europa manual in setting those up and positioning them?  They need lots of TLC in that department, but once they're right, they do some really cool things, and you may have a couple of wow moments.

[John Casler]

The surprising thing (to me at least) is that the Creek/Cambridge/Dunlavy is the 'WOW' system. It was put together on a budget 4-5 years ago (2nd hand speakers) and really does sound terrific. (It sounded even better in my old house, where I could stretch the speakers even further apart, to almost 14 feet. Something about widening the Dunlavy's opens up an unbelievable enveloping sound. Dunlavy was adamant about putting his speakers along the long wall.)  The second system was put together about 10 months a ...

This doesn't surprise me at all.  

John Dunlavy was an incredible speaker designer, and if I'm not mistaken, he had a lot in common with Brian Cheney.

If you peruse the article here in Stereophile, http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/163/index.html  You will find a lot of philosophical similarities in design.

He was a big believer in "time aligned" systems as well as 1st order crossovers, and had some Awsome Speakers.

[ctviggen]

A lot of people recommend long wall placement, typically because the first reflection points are behind you or are darn far away.  I wanted to do this in my current house, but I have a fireplace that would cause non-symmetric placement.  So, instead of long wall placement, I'm going to do short wall with a ton of room treatment (once my speakers are paid off).

[IanVan]

A lot of people recommend long wall placement, typically because the first reflection points are behind you or are darn far away.  

That is something that I never understood with the Europa's. Roy is quite specific that he wants the listener's distance from the line between the speakers to be larger than the width between the speakers. That pretty much demands short wall placement. Whereas John Dunlavy was adamant that the sound is better with long wall placement, putting the listener closer to the line between the speakers than the length of the line.

Given that the two speakers are designed with similar philosophies, does anyone know why the placement is so different?

[John Casler]

That is something that I never understood with the Europa's. Roy is quite specific that he wants the listener's distance from the line between the speakers to be larger than the width between the speakers. That pretty much demands short wall placement. Whereas John Dunlavy was adamant that the sound is better with long wall placement, putting the listener closer to the line between the speakers than the length of the line.

Given that the two speakers are designed with similar philosophies, does anyone know why the placement is so different?

I have PM'd Roy to see if he might post suggested positioning and why.

[Red Dragon Audio]

A lot of people recommend long wall placement, typically because the first reflection points are behind you or are darn far away.  I wanted to do this in my current house, but I have a fireplace that would cause non-symmetric placement.  So, instead of long wall placement, I'm going to do short wall with a ton of room treatment (once my speakers are paid off).

Hi Bob,

You should be able to treat that first reflection point for about $75.  My local fiberglass supplier will sell me a box of Knauf 2" thick 2.25PCF rigid fiberglass for $75.  A box has six sheets; each sheet is 2"x2'x4'; which means the whole box will cover 48sqft.  Not bad for $75 especially considering the effectiveness of compressed fiberglass compared to foam.

I'm sure they have 1" thick rigid fiberglass which would cover more surface area. (probably 96sqft and I bet the price difference isn't much if any).

Sorry to get off topic but thought I would share this with Bob (& anyone else interested as is semi applies here...maybe...sort of...not really...just a little).

[Hantra]

You should be able to treat that first reflection point for about $75.  My local fiberglass supplier will sell me a box of Knauf 2" thick 2.25PCF rigid fiberglass for $75.  A box has six sheets; each sheet is 2"x2'x4'; which means the whole box will cover 48sqft.  Not bad for $75 especially considering the effectiveness of compressed fiberglass compared to foam.

Man if you're going to spend $75, give Nathan a call at 8th Nerve.  Or post on his forum.

[ctviggen]

I'm still undecided as to whether I'll make any of the room treatment products or not.  I'm the type of person who programs their own Pronto, puts in soft water systems, works on his own vehicles, puts in new bathroom fans, etc.  The problem is, though, that I've reached a point in my life where I'm strapped for time and money isn't that big of a problem (money is always a problem).  For me to build my own room treatment, it's going to take time to determine what to buy, where to buy it, how much it'll cost, then it take time to build something.  If I need tools, it'll take time to research what to buy, where to buy it, etc.  And if you think something will take X time, my rule of thumb is to at least triple X, and that might come close to how much time it's really going to take.  For instance, I'm replacing the rear main seal on my truck.  People say it only takes "an afternoon" to do this.  Well, it takes more than an afternoon just to go to the dealer and get the parts, then go to another store to get other parts, jack up the truck and take the starter out.  You haven't even attempted to take out the bazillion bolts holding the oil pan on, and you haven't considered the problem that the oil pan won't fit over the front axle, thereby necessitating that you take almost the entire front end apart just to get the dang oil pan off.  Something that's supposed to take "an afternoon" really takes several days.  

I'm hesitent to try and make my own room treatments because I think that what seems relatively easy to do really isn't.  Do I just fork over the credit card to Eigth Nerve, go buy some beer, put in the products, or do I attempt to research what I need to buy, what I need to buy to build these things, build them (and buy the tools), make mistakes, ruin some of them, etc.?

[Red Dragon Audio]

You should be able to treat that first reflection point for about $75.  My local fiberglass supplier will sell me a box of Knauf 2" thick 2.25PCF rigid fiberglass for $75.  A box has six sheets; each sheet is 2"x2'x4'; which means the whole box will cover 48sqft.  Not bad for $75 especially considering the effectiveness of compressed fiberglass compared to foam.

Man if you're going to spend $75, give Nathan a call at 8th Nerve.  Or post on his forum.

What?!!!?

$75 buys an ENTIRE BOX of 1"-2" thick, 2.25PCF Rigid fiberglass panels which are WAY more effective than the 8thNerve Roompack (which is $270).  It covers probably 20x more area, is more effective acoustically, and can be covered with inexpensive fabric for another $30.  So for $105, you have treated your entire room and it will sound loads better than a simple Roompack.  No offense to Nathan, I bought a Stereovox digital cable from him back when they first sold for $75 and I think more improvements will be had from a $75 box of these fiberglass panels.

 The Roompack I'm sure does an OK job when it comes to treating a room but the surface area those little pillows cover is miniscule.  You might as well just go buy some pillows at a second hand store and hang them on the wall and put some of those cynlinder pillows in the corners.




With very little effort and planning (most of it has been done for you already on the acoustic forum) you can treat your room properly.

Here's a quick idea with simple instructions:

Get one box of 1"-2" 2.00-2.25PCF rigid fiberglass panels.  Just quickly place them around the room where you think you need absorption and sit down for a listen.  Experiement a little.  Move them around.  When you have found that perfect spot for the panels GREAT!  Now just cover them with fabric.  This isn't like changing the whatever seal out of your truck's thingamaBOB.  There aren't a bazillion bolts to take out.

Take 15 minutes to think about what materials you want, make phone calls to the stores you need to visit to make sure they have what you need in stock; saves time instead of driving all over town.  15-30minutes of planning makes all the difference...oh and a few phone calls.  Don't think about it too much. Just do it!    


Later on, when you want to treat bass problems in your room call that same place where you bought the first box of fiberglass and ask for 2"-4" thick panels but of higher density; say about 4.00PCF-6.00PCF.  Then take those panels home, place them in CORNERS, as that is where bass is reinfornced most in a room.  You should treat each of the four corners, as well as some of the corners where the walls meet the ceiling or floor.  Look at this picture from Realtraps.com for reference:



I am just saying, with not much effort, less money, and yes ONE WHOLE SATURDAY for sure, you can treat your room much better than you would think you could.