New RM30C owner

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Jose R.

New RM30C owner
« on: 21 Nov 2004, 05:51 pm »
Hi everyone

I got my RM30C's a few days ago and have been running them in - initial impressions are quite good but I need to do a bit of tweaking.
I use a Tact 2.2x RCS digital preamp with two Tact S2150 amps for mains and a pair of corner Tact W210 subs (each has dual 10" woofers).  Digital crossover between main speakers and subs can be set anywhere from 50 - 325Hz.  Currently I am using crossovers of 260 which sounds good - better than lower crossovers where the RM30C woofers are working.  
I also have monoblock valve amps and an Audio Aero Capitole MKI CDP which has valve output.  I will be trying the valve amps soon as well as biamping.
I have a dedicated sound room with a dead-end/live-end configuration.  Side wall reflections are well damped and floor has carpet.

Some initial questions I would appreciate some views on:
1) The FS tweeter is about 120cm from floor, my listening position puts me at 94cm ear level.  Is this a problem wrt tweeter axis?  Should I tilt speakers forward to aim the tweeters closer to ear height?
2) Speaker toe-in: I know that Brian recommends toeing in so that speaker axes cross 1-2' in front of listening position.  Is this primarily for bass reasons or is imaging, soundstaging and focus better?  I have found that with this toe in center focus is good but I lose a bit of width.

Thanks and regards

Jose

Tyson

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New RM30C owner
« Reply #1 on: 21 Nov 2004, 07:16 pm »
1) Yes.

2) For soundstage and imaging.

jermmd

New RM30C owner
« Reply #2 on: 21 Nov 2004, 08:02 pm »
How far is your seating position from the speaker?  If you're more than 6 feet away, you shouldn't need to tilt the speakers.  Try it both ways and see which way sounds better.

Congratulations on the new speakers.  I love mine and I don't use a sub for 2-channel.  Your sub settings are pretty radical but I suppose it spares you the need to play with putty.  I toe my speakers in as per Brian's suggestions and I'm pretty happy with the results.  Again, experiment with different positions and see what sounds best.

Joe M.

Jose R.

New RM30C owner
« Reply #3 on: 21 Nov 2004, 08:05 pm »
Thank you for the reply.

I am also intrigued by the foam half-circles on either side of the tweeter - I respect Brian's reason for using these but would be curious to know what the effect is of removing them.  I say this because I have done numerous measurements of the speakers with the Tact system at the listening position (about 10') and the tweeter response is not linear.  I get a 3dB peak at 10kHz, -3dB dip at 15 kHz and then a rise up to 20kHz.

Regards

Jose

warnerwh

New RM30C owner
« Reply #4 on: 21 Nov 2004, 08:37 pm »
I believe Brian puts those there to reduce diffraction from the cabinet. If you have ever looked at the way sound travels from the driver you will see it travels along the surface of the baffle. Also many cabinets will have rounded corners which also helps. A plus or minus 3db variation is actually considered quite good, from the listening position it is excellent to outstanding. Go to Partsexpress and check out the pdf's on various tweeters that are measured in an ideal circumstance.

Jose R.

New RM30C owner
« Reply #5 on: 21 Nov 2004, 08:54 pm »
Quote from: jermmd
How far is your seating position from the speaker?  If you're more than 6 feet away, you shouldn't need to tilt the speakers.  Try it both ways and see which way sounds better.
  Your sub settings are pretty radical but I suppose it spares you the need to play with putty.  
Joe M.


Hi Joe

Thanks for your reply.  I sit about 10' from the speakers and am not aware of any loss at the top but was curious about others' findings.
I agree that my sub settings are "unusual" :? I have previously used x-overs of 90-120 with other speakers but to my surprise the higher ones sounded better with the RM30C's - I still have a lot of experimentation to do.  The Tact setup with corner based subs does however work very well and I have been using these for over two years.  The 10" drivers are very light, sensitive and "quick" and are designed to run up to 325Hz.  It does allow optimum placement of the main speakers wrt imaging and soundstaging and avoids some of the bass problems associated with main speaker placement.  This is the reason that I went for the C version rather than the M version.  The mid- and upper bass using the Tact subs seems better than the drivers in the RM30C with my current listening position - I certainly do not mean to imply that the VMPS drivers are bad, it is purely a function of the speaker positioning.

Regards

Jose

zybar

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New RM30C owner
« Reply #6 on: 21 Nov 2004, 11:54 pm »
Jose,

Welcome to AudioCircle and VMPS.

I just powered up a new Tact RCS 2.2x AAA preamp and it is very different from the Bent NOH passive preamp I own.  At this point I have pretty much just tried it in bypass mode as I need to get a USB/Serial adapter in order to connect the Tact to my laptop.

George

Jose R.

New RM30C owner
« Reply #7 on: 22 Nov 2004, 05:02 am »
Hi George

I have been been reading the posts in this forum for some time now in anticipation of getting my speakers and have enjoyed the enthusiasm and views here.  
I use AN USB-serial adaptor for my laptop with the 2.2x and it works fine.  As you get used to the RCS you will find it an excellent tool - the TactAudioUsersGroup forum is also very helpful as you will find.
I look forward to exploring these speakers further and thank you for the welcome.

Regards

Jose

jermmd

New RM30C owner
« Reply #8 on: 22 Nov 2004, 09:01 am »
Jose,

I just saw your location.  Wow. Where did you here about VMPS? Were you able to hear VMPS speakers anywhere prior to purchasing your RM30's?  How much was shipping?  What are the big speaker brands sold locally?  

I think you're really going to like your new speakers.  They take a while to break in but the biggest difference time made for me was in bass so break in might not be so important for you.  Let us know your configuration after you really get them dialed in (pot settings, toe in, Sub X-over settings, etc.)

Joe M.

jimmyp58

New RM30C owner
« Reply #9 on: 22 Nov 2004, 11:06 am »
Welcome to our group Jose'.

Jim

John Casler

Re: New RM30C owner
« Reply #10 on: 22 Nov 2004, 03:55 pm »
Quote from: Jose R.


I got my RM30C's a few days ago and have been running them in - initial impressions are quite good but I need to do a bit of tweaking.
I use a Tact 2.2x RCS digital preamp with two Tact S2150 amps for mains and a pair of corner Tact W210 subs (each has dual 10" woofers). Digital crossover between main speakers and subs can be set anywhere from 50 - 325Hz. Currently I am using crossovers of 260 which sounds good - better than lower crossovers where the RM30C woofers are working.
I also have monoblock valve amps and an Audio Aero Capitole MKI CDP which has valve output. I will be trying the valve amps soon as well as biamping.
I have a dedicated sound room with a dead-end/live-end configuration. Side wall reflections are well damped and floor has carpet.

Some initial questions I would appreciate some views on:
1) The FS tweeter is about 120cm from floor, my listening position puts me at 94cm ear level. Is this a problem wrt tweeter axis? Should I tilt speakers forward to aim the tweeters closer to ear height?
2) Speaker toe-in: I know that Brian recommends toeing in so that speaker axes cross 1-2' in front of listening position. Is this primarily for bass reasons or is imaging, soundstaging and focus better? I have found that with this toe in center focus is good but I lose a bit of width.

...


Hi Jose,

Glad the speakers arrived "safe and sound".  

1) Brian suggests having the ear level with the top 1/3 - of the top neopanel on the RM30.  This becomes less important the further you sit from the speakers, but should still be "close" to that position.  Being on axis with the tweeter will probably be too hot.  This can be slightly different w/ the RM40s since it has a neopanel both above and below the FST to blend with.

2) As far as toe in, (convergence): you can use a wide variety of angles to good results.

The convergence angle is designed to accomplish a couple things.  It creates a blended signal to develop a stable image and soundstage, it reduces sidewall reflection, and it put you ears either on or slightly off direct axis depending on the desired result.

Your options are:

Convergence in front of you
Convergence on axis
Convergence behind you

Since you have the speakers set up in the Dead End, you will not have to be concerned with sidewall reflection.  This will allow a wider speaker placement to "widen" the soundstage.  Remember in a more lively room (not yours) some soundstage is false, and caused by dispersed sound reflecting off of the side walls.

Unless a recording has "specifically phased sonics" designed to project sound outside width of the speakers (either by design, naturally occuring, or accident) the soundstage will only be as wide as the speakers themselves.

That said, I would suggest both a wider placement (if that is possible) and convergence 1-2 feet "behind" your head, as a starting set up, to see if it yeilds what you want.

As far as your x-over, I beleive the x-over on the RM30C woofer/neo is in a higher range, so your 260Hz is probably a pretty good starting point, (depending on the slope) as long as the blend sounds nicely specific.

As far as your measurments to adjust your TACT system, you may want to post Big B, and ask him what he suggests, to get the best reading for your purposes.  My best guess is that you might need to adjust your mike height after you adjust the convergence angle, but B is the best source.  

Additionally, beleive it or not, he might suggest a slightly different x-over hinge will yeild a better transfer in the high end :o

And I too want to welcome you to the group.  Having an unheard speaker sent around the world is a big step.  I'm sure you'll really enjoy the adventures ahead as you get these babies adjusted and broken in.

Have fun.

Jose R.

New RM30C owner
« Reply #11 on: 22 Nov 2004, 08:03 pm »
Hi everyone

Many thanks for the welcome and replies - it is much appreciated.  I live in South Africa and thus had to buy these speakers on faith!  As John says it was a leap of faith but my initial impressions are very good.  I did a lot of reading research on these speakers and this forum was very informative and helpful.  I was attracted by Brian's design philosophy and specifically wanted to try panels which covered the range that these do.  I have tried many speakers with x-overs in the 1.5-4kHz range and always found this a problem area.
I will have to play around a lot wrt toe-in, distances etc and look forward to optimizing these speakers in my room.
I must say that they work very well with the Tact room correction, a unit that I have had for two years and which I cannot live without.  I know that many people "hate" or distrust any form of digital manipulation but I would venture to say that this is mainly out of bias or ignorance.  I do not have an analogue (turntable) system thus everything I listen to is digital but everything sounds better to me with room correction incl SACD, DVD-Audio etc.  The RM30C's also sound a lot better with the RCS.  I will also look at digital x-overs at some time and will get Brian's advice on this.
Initial impressions are that these speakers are faster and more detailed than others I have had and the soundstage width and height are very impressive.  They have a rich open sound which I really enjoy but I stress that I am still getting to know them and they also need to run in fully.

I just saw your location. Wow. Where did you here about VMPS? Were you able to hear VMPS speakers anywhere prior to purchasing your RM30's? How much was shipping? What are the big speaker brands sold locally?

Joe, I got to know about the VMPS speakers from various reviews and also when looking up ribbon speakers.  Unfortunately there are no dealers in SA and I basically had to take a bit of a gamble and buy them.  I bought them via John Casler who was very helpful.  It cost me about $800 to ship by air from JFK.  We have pretty much all the big brands here incl Avantgarde, JMLab, Tannoy, B&W, Dynaudio etc.  I have previously used locally made speakers using Vifa woofers and ring-dome tweeter which I have found better than most of the big name brands - until I heard the VMPS stuff :D

Regards

Jose