[Wind Chaser]

I've also heard several of Steve's speakers...  Weak bass seemed to be his taste, typical of the small amp/high efficiency crowd.

Typical? Really? 

[OzarkTom]

Seems like Rex is the consummate SET/single driver fan.  To each their own.  My mains are single driver designs too, but rated F3 = 27 Hz (but aren't efficient enough for SETs).  You don't need to turn up the volume to hear deep bass.  Perhaps you've been without deep bass for so long you've forgotten.  Many of my single driver buddies almost freak out when they heard musical/deep bass from my speakers, like they can't believe it's real.

And I'm with O.B., you don't need a 32 foot long room to hear 16 Hz, which BTW is 70 feet long (1120 fps/16 Hz).  By that logical I wouldn't be able to hear below 53 Hz in my 21 foot long room and I know that's wrong.  What you were hearing was probably standing waves that exist in every residential sized room.

Rex has owned a lot of SET amps, but he is not a SET fan.

If you do not have a 32 foot pipe on an organ, it will not produce 16hz notes. And if you sit too close to the organ, you will not hear the 16hz notes.

Show me another C&C speaker that produces 20 hz bass. The Decware DNA horn is rated to 20hz. But I am sure Rex's room is to small for that response.

DNA Horn
Single Point Source
Crossover-less
20Hz ~ 20kHz!
Ultra SMOOTH frequency response
FAST recovery
Low Phase Angle
World Class Imaging
Benchmark Fidelity
Bi-Polar with decayed rear wave response 6dB/octave
Easy Impedance of 7 to 70 ohms / 20Hz~20KHz

[JLM]

Typical? Really? 

Yep, in my experience.

[JLM]

Rex has owned a lot of SET amps, but he is not a SET fan.

If you do not have a 32 foot pipe on an organ, it will not produce 16hz notes. And if you sit too close to the organ, you will not hear the 16hz notes.

Show me another C&C speaker that produces 20 hz bass. The Decware DNA horn is rated to 20hz. But I am sure Rex's room is to small for that response.

DNA Horn
Single Point Source
Crossover-less
20Hz ~ 20kHz!
Ultra SMOOTH frequency response
FAST recovery
Low Phase Angle
World Class Imaging
Benchmark Fidelity
Bi-Polar with decayed rear wave response 6dB/octave
Easy Impedance of 7 to 70 ohms / 20Hz~20KHz

Yeah, I read that from the Decware site.  Do you believe everything you read from manufacturers?

Speakers are not musical instruments (or else according to you we'd need 32 foot long/tall ones.

DIY is "cheating" the C&C guidelines.  The DNA speakers retail for $1700/pair.  And I seriously doubt they really reach 23 Hz as advertised.  Again, nearly all small amp/efficient speaker fans I know don't know what 30 Hz sounds like.

[danali]

anyone here using the "entry" level Hawthorne Audio OB's? (15 inchers(
I have them and they do a pretty damn good job on most of my music with a t amp and Tidal via usb dac.

[wushuliu]

Q acoustics are now on my radar.  They get unanimous praise from what I've read so far.

[JLM]

anyone here using the "entry" level Hawthorne Audio OB's? (15 inchers(
I have them and they do a pretty damn good job on most of my music with a t amp and Tidal via usb dac.

Have heard them a few times (and several other Hawthornes).  Great value, very efficient, and provide remarkably deep bass with a very small baffle.  But not much resolution and a significant dispersion disconnect between tweeter and big woofer.

[OzarkTom]

DIY is "cheating" the C&C guidelines.  The DNA speakers retail for $1700/pair.  And I seriously doubt they really reach 23 Hz as advertised.  Again, nearly all small amp/efficient speaker fans I know don't know what 30 Hz sounds like.

 

Cheating? Did you read the guidelines?

I would also like to encourage DIY crowd and those with well of information on projects which will be appropriate for this Circle to step forward and offer their knowledge. 

[fredgarvin]

JLM is quite correct in his characterization of most single driver systems, and about standing waves. I'm not sure why anyone would argue those points, especially with anecdotal arguments.

I doubt single driver enthusiasts are so inclined for bass responce in any case.

[JLM]

Cheating? Did you read the guidelines?

Oops.  I'm truly surprised that DIY is allowed.

[opnly bafld]

JLM is quite correct in his characterization of most single driver systems, ......................... I'm not sure why anyone would argue those points, especially with anecdotal arguments.

I doubt single driver enthusiasts are so inclined for bass responce in any case.

I'm unwilling to do a peer reviewed study to satisfy you, but most of the single driver fans that I know and read about have some sort of bass augmentation in their "single driver systems".

[jarcher]

Oops.  I'm truly surprised that DIY is allowed.

"which will be appropriate for this Circle" - i.e. suggesting just because people can make a C&C speaker from a bag of parts & box and meet the C&C threshold doesn't always fall in that spirt.  Just because IN THEORY you can make a $200 restaurant meal for $50 in ingredients doesn't mean you have the time or talent to do so. Which is what I find so annoying about the DIY crowd every time the topic of cost comes up, which it unfailingly does as hifi for whatever reasons seems to draw out tedious contentions,  Next time I go to Starbucks I'm going to complain that the beans and the water doesn't cost $5 & see how much sympathy I get.

[JLM]

Good point jarcher.

Back in 1980 I built 6 cubic foot transmission line speaker cabinets from MDF and installed the manufacturer's supplied woofer/crossover/foam fill.  But I had help and access to a table saw.  And as they turned out, I should have painted them  versus attempting to veneer and given up on trying to make grills for them.  I now have neither help or a table saw and certainly less skill than then. 

[srb]

I don't really see used equipment having much of a place in this circle either.

Sourcing a particular piece of used equipment is often not a readily duplicatable task.  Someone might get a particular component free from his brother-in-law, find one leaning against a dumpster, find one at the Goodwill Store for $15 or on Craigslist for $150.

On the other hand a lot of the time a particular piece might not be found locally at all even after a year or two of looking.  eBay can be a crapshoot for receiving an item in promised condition or even working at all.  I've looked for a particular piece on Audiogon for many months without finding one.

"My uncle gave me a Rotel CD player, an NAD 315 amplifier and a pair of KEF C60 speakers".  Cost: $0.  So what?  Sure it's Cheap and Cheerful to that person.

As far as DIY, I think the time involved, even at a lowish $10 - $20 an hour should be calcuated into the cost regardless if you enjoy doing it or not.  As mentioned previously, DIY is certainly not for everyone with all the variables of required tools, space and time.

Steve

[Wind Chaser]

I'm unwilling to do a peer reviewed study to satisfy you, but most of the single driver fans that I know and read about have some sort of bass augmentation in their "single driver systems".

I would concur with your view but apparently that's not the case in the atypical world. 

[fredgarvin]

I'm unwilling to do a peer reviewed study to satisfy you, but most of the single driver fans that I know and read about have some sort of bass augmentation in their "single driver systems".

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. Single driver enthusiasts are not expecting or really looking for great bass response in a single driver loudspeaker,  and as you mentioned, they will probably augment them to achieve decent bass. Other factors are more important to them in a single speaker design than deep bass.

[cujobob]

Lots of good deals floating around right now. If you use ebates for cashback and purchase from World Wide Stereo and then live chat or call them, you can get a pair of JBL 530 for under $500 shipped. They also have some Elac. 6% cashback and 10% discount for Cyber Monday.

The Elac UB5 is on sale right now for $399 at many places. Music Direct has a version in Walnut that I was eyeing but I ended up going with the JBLs instead. There was an amazing deal on KEF LS50 on Amazon that ended yesterday, but that's an entirely different ballpark and not C&C.

The JBL LSR 305 can be had many places for $200 right now, including Amazon.

The ELAC B5 have been marked down at various sites recently too. Perhaps combining with a coupon code or Ebates could net you some super cheap speakers.

Thought a few of you would maybe be interested. happy hunting!

[Letitroll98]

Thanks cujobob, good post.

As far as used and diy, they will always be a significant part of C&C because of the nature of the beast.  Of course no one includes their time in diy projects other than as an anecdote because they're not in a production line, these are labors of love.  Just because you can't replicate the price of used components doesn't invalidate their purchase, the item was worth X dollars to both parties.  Suppose you bought a new item at closeout, the last one so not replicateable, should you have to report it at retail?  The only caveat is that we generally ask you to assign some reasonable value to gifts from Uncle Bob or stuff you found in the back of the closet.

[pinkfloyd4ever]

FYI, needledoctor.com has the Elac B6 for $229/pair right now