[MaxCast]

I know everyone has a different opinion on what sounds the best.  Is it possible to design a product that most people would be happy with as is?  A product that in which any more mods, additions or changes would not justify the price?

Lets take a Cd player for example (players and dacs seem to get modded the most).  We read mods done my many reputable modders out there and then audioengr's post about total redesign of the circut.  Would it be nice if a few designers and a manufacturer got together and designed a player that offered the best of all worlds?  Is this possible, or would the consumer/designers have too many differences of opinion as to what sounds "good enough?"

[nathanm]

There's tons of products that people buy and don't want to mod!  I know I own plenty!    But as far as building gear for people who are ABLE to do their own modifications to be satisfied with, I don't think that will happen.  If you have the tweaking skills you're going to want to use them no matter what.  Everyone wants to think they can make something better, or more to their taste.  I think the modders are always going to wanna mod regardless of how good the original is.

[KevinW]

But as far as building gear for people who are ABLE to do their own modifications to be satisfied with, I don't think that will happen.  If you have the tweaking skills you're going to want to use them no matter what.

Haha, damn right!  Sometimes, I think that opening up a component and inserting Auricaps, or Tantalum resitors, Blackgates, or Jena Ultrawire is akin to rolling up the sleeve and injecting a dose of heroin.   It's very addicting, and oh what heavenly feelings are the result (except when you screw up, but that just increases the addiction as you work feverishly to fix it).  So if you're not a modder yet, be careful if you decide to start.

Hey Nathan, your preamp is on the way, and it has some definite mod potential. Let me know if you want some advice on how to DIY.

[audioengr]

Certainly possible, but not probable.  This is not because designers don't use premium parts in the right places.  I't because there are only a very few designers that know:
1) Good circuit design techniques
2) Good component selection
3) Good grounding and shielding techniques (to prevent ground loops)
4) Good return-path techniques
5) Good power-delivery techniques (layout and return paths)

The guy that knows all of these is so rare that I have never met one.  Most designers in industry try to design it cheap, so they continuously make design trade-offs.  This is their training.  Fortunately for me, I know most of these fairly well, which puts me in a position to do superior mods or create superior products.  However, I am going to do what is my passion and what is fun, which is cables right now.

[nathanm]

Well, I think it's one of those things where a person really needs the electrical background and education to know about what they wanna change and why.  Sure I could be taught which resistor to replace or how to put in a different capacitor, but I wouldn't know WHY I was doing so.  I wouldn't have the knowledge of how circuits work to know why this certain fancy part is better than this other fancy part.  Without groking the circuitry itself I am not sure if modding is a good idea.  Tube swapping I can see, that's really easy, but I don't forsee myself opening up cases to desolder hundreds of tiny wires and thinking that's a fun project! Heh!

I certainly understand the concept of taking a mostly good design and inserting higher tolerance parts that the original company could not afford to use.  It makes sense.  I often wonder why ART doesn't see how popular the DIO upgrades are and release a product that caters to that crowd.  I guess it's all up to the bean counters. "Accounting wants to know why we are using the 50 cent resistors instead of the 5 cent resistors!"

I am going to be "unmodding" my Norh LeAmp monos soon, and that's just one resistor!  That sounds like something I can handle! Har!

I always wondered  if there was some amp or whatever that 'everyone' agreed was a fantastic product.  But the more I learn the more I think there is no such thing and everyone has their own idea of what sounds good.  I'm still amazed at the sheer NUMBER of different products there are out there.  You'd think eventually we'd come to a consensus about what designs work and which ones don't.  Hmmm.  I mean really - how many different ways ARE THERE to amplify sine waves?! Heh! (note: That's a RHETORICAL question!!! )

[Rob Babcock]

I believe in the power of mods, but there's another factor at work.  I can readily explain this using my dad's main hobby as an example; guns & shooting.

My dad is a big time gun nut; the only thing he likes more than shooting them is reloading ammo and tinkering with the gun itself.  Case in point, he once had a $400 Auto Ordinance .45 that he had $750 of "mods" in (new barrel & barrel bushings, better extraction, chamfered ejection port, polished feed ramp, new sights, grips, new beavertail grip safety, etc).  Many of these upgrades improved the performance of the firearm.  However, many of them just personalized the weapon.  He would talk more about the mods done to the gun than the gun itself.  Of course, as in our hobby, this relative cheapo pistol smoked most of the Colt customs that he shot it against.

The performance gains, as in handloading, are sometimes secondary the the satisfaction and pride of having "done it yourself", having put your own personal stamp upon something that while manufactured in the thousands, perhaps millions, is now something unique.

Of course, when reselling, some of those "tweaks" aren't easy to convert into cash!

[MaxCast]

I know there will always be a place for the audio tweek nuts to buy a piece and tweek, tweek, tweek until the cows come home.  That is fine.  I, like nathanm, could learn but would not know what to use and why.  I had fun building my Foreplay and may try Scott Nixon's DAC.  But now that even has an upgrade  

I am really referring to the 5 points audioengr made.  Maybe it would be hard for the designers to agree on all the options.  Maybe, again like nathanm said, there are so many product designs out there the piece is present.  Maybe it is all about system synergy.  Maybe if the piece wasn't designed to a price point the price would be out of my range

With all the great discussions on this site by a number of knowledgeable people it dosen't seem that far off.  I know JohnR had a post at HD about a collective effort on a preamp.  Forgot where that ended up at.

I'm not talking about a piece that would gain 100% acceptance.  A piece that would have whosits, whatsdats, and purple gates......just some thoughts.

[KevinW]

Certainly possible, but not probable.  This is not because designers don't use premium parts in the right places.  I't because there are only a very few designers that know:
1) Good circuit design techniques
2) Good component selection
3) Good grounding and shielding techniques (to prevent ground loops)
4) Good return-path techniques
5) Good power-delivery techniques (layout and return paths)

The guy that knows all of these is so rare that I have never met one.  

Well, that may be because you are looking in the wrong gender.   There's a gal right here in Portland that fits all of those categories.  Someday you'll have to meet Jennifer Crock of Jena Labs.  She is a genius designer and very highly regarded in the industry. We were in fact, just discussing the very same points you raised above.  She would add one more to your list:

6)  Know how changing even one item in the list affects every other item in the list, and then be able to know whether those ancillary changes are in sum good or in sum bad.  In other words... I would call this "integrating the tradeoffs".

I am fortunate that I have the educational background in physics and electronics to be able to truly learn about audio electronic design when we discuss technical issues.  My personal skills are being able to digest the physics of good sound (electrically and acoustically), and then explain that to anyone else with any level of technical knowledge (or lack of knowledge).  It is my personal goal that the person I am talking to can take their own personal learning to the next level.

I might also add, that the list above technically applies more towards new component design, and not tweaking by adding better parts.  I really think that almost anyone can learn enough solder skills to replace a cheap part with a very good one and then reap the benefits of the improved sound quality.  It doesn't take a circuit design knowledge to do this, especially if someone more knowledgeable tells you exactly what to replace.  This is how I got restarted on my electronics career (I used to build and design geophysics-related electronics in college).  My path was to read about tweaks to my Jolida 302b on Audio Asylum, and then implement them using the circuit schematic.   I truly believe that anyone with half a technical mind can do some simple tweaks to their components.  Amps and preamps are generally a bit easier to tweak the cd players, but not always.

Hey Steve, I think you should use your digital design talents to develop an affordable digital amplifier.  Now that would be cool!!

[nathanm]

I am going to be "unmodding" my Norh LeAmp monos soon, and that's just one resistor!  That sounds like something I can handle! Har!

What fucking idiot said this!?  Oh damn, it was me.  Well I was wrong, I CAN'T handle replacing a resistor it seems.  Consequently I managed to burn out the voice coil on one of my woofers after hooking the amp up.  Fantastic!  It smelled great too!  Moral of the story: when you don't have the talent, at least do yourself a favor and get the right tools.  Get a giant lighted magnifying glass on a spring loaded arm, get a fancy soldering iron with teeny tiny tips, get a comfortable chair and a clean work area or don't even bother.  That's my advice. Oh, and don't plug anything in unless you test it first!

Suddenly all sorts of products exist that sound so good I don't want to mod them!  The dream is achieved!  And wowzers, I already own most of them!

[audioengr]

Kevin W Wrote:

Hey Steve, I think you should use your digital design talents to develop an affordable digital amplifier. Now that would be cool!!

Now you are reading minds.  I actually have been planning this for some time, but need to find the time and money to do it.  I designed one about 10 years ago, but the power Mosfets were too slow back then.  I have a design in mind that is completely digital, up to the output filter.

[JoshK]

Steve,

If it is completely digital up to the output filter does that mean it could accept input from a transport skipping the DAC step?

[JohnR]

nathanm, I'm on the floor laughing  

Oh dear, I'm sorry to hear about your mishap. I guess you don't have any choice about replacing the woofers now...  

[audioengr]

Steve,

If it is completely digital up to the output filter does that mean it could accept input from a transport skipping the DAC step?

No, it just converts the signal to digital immediately.  I suppose I could do this, but volume control is an issue which seems to work better in the analog domain.  Also, with the copy protections etc., most new media comes out analog anyway.

[JoshK]

I was just wondering is all.  I would wonder how to make the clocks sync so that jitter doesn't become an amplified problem.   I agree that analog inputs seem most practical.