[jMelvin]

Thanks guys. I'll check out each of these. Much appreciated.

[Canada Rob]

If I'm not mistaken the QED cable is unplated stranded copper.  It would stand to reason that in this case we would need termination.

Yes, that is correct.

[DaveC113]

For budget speaker cable I'd go with a star-quad of 18g mil-spec wire, which is silver plated copper with teflon insulation. Should be about $1/ft to make the cable, can be done with a drill. Buy from Apex Jr.

Tin plated copper (Supra) works well, that's what the WE wire is people rave about, but imo it's a bit dull sounding vs silver plated copper. But otoh, some find silver plated copper too bright.

Also, while there's nothing wrong with budget anything, and Omegas may be budget speakers relative to the market... they do respond well to using better than budget components and cables. Especially speaker cable, it's the only thing between the amp and drivers and it's not easy to find a cable that really does justice to the speakers.

[roscoe65]

For budget speaker cable I'd go with a star-quad of 18g mil-spec wire, which is silver plated copper with teflon insulation. Should be about $1/ft to make the cable, can be done with a drill. Buy from Apex Jr.

Tin plated copper (Supra) works well, that's what the WE wire is people rave about, but imo it's a bit dull sounding vs silver plated copper. But otoh, some find silver plated copper too bright.

Also, while there's nothing wrong with budget anything, and Omegas may be budget speakers relative to the market... they do respond well to using better than budget components and cables. Especially speaker cable, it's the only thing between the amp and drivers and it's not easy to find a cable that really does justice to the speakers.

We wish it were this simple.  Many of us spend a lot of time and angst on cables.  We worry about the characteristics of the wire itself, the methods of termination, the materials of the binding posts, even going so far as to elevating the cables off the carpet with special pods or stands.  When we connect this cable to our speakers, the signal travels through the binding post to the internal wire, which is likely completely different cable, and then to the diver(s), which may be connected to the internal wiring by a crimp connector of brass or other metal connection.

One the other end of the cable lies the amplifier.  Again the cable is connected to the amp via a binding post, which is in turn soldered to the secondary winding of an output transformer. This is not even discussing what happens on the primary side of the transformer.

I am firmly in the camp that believes that to a point wire and cable matter.  However, my belief in why and how much it matters has evolved along with my system, what I value about musical reproduction, and how I have come to understand how other, more invasive tweaks can have a greater effect on my system.  I think the point of diminishing returns on cables arrives pretty quickly, and that other system changes such as tube or capacitor choices can have a more significant effect.

Cables and other external tweaks (such as stands and supports) are both necessary (we need something to connect one component to another) and objectively "easy" for most people to implement without actually lifting the hood of their electronics.  There are a lot of people who will spend thousands on these external tweaks but won't change a $2.00 capacitor for a $15.00 capacitor.  Or they will spend $1,500 on speaker but stop at the binding posts.

[Canada Rob]

DaveC113 is right, Omegas do respond to even subtile upline changes. 

Just because something is at a budget price doesn't mean it's at a budget performance level; and Omega, Decware, etc. prove that.

Case in point for what it's worth: for years my reference cable was $650 USD per 10 foot set silver plated OFC with silver bananas.  I had some Monster (oops, did I swear?) 16g OFC basic speaker wire with Monster QuickLock ends kicking around so decided to try it.  It sounded so good I left it in the system and sold the expensive wire.  The QED 79 Strand sounds essentially the same.  It's not the fact this cable is "cheap" that I like it.  It's the fact that it sounds great and if it were five times the price I would still buy it...because it sounds good.  Regardless of what one spends on audio; if it sounds good, it is good.

Also, most amps and speakers have gold plated terminals.  The QED ends are gold plated, and the copper wire being cold welded with no oxygen incursion possible precludes any possibility of galvanic corrosion due to dissimilar metals in contact with one another in the signal chain.

Cold welding is an extreme and radially even pressure crimp that all but turns the multi-stranded wire into a solid piece within the connector, creating an oxygen free environment.  A special piece of equipment is required for cold welding.

That said, audio is an extremely subjective hobby and there (within reason) really is no "right".  It boils down to what a person likes, whether they spent a little or a lot on their system.

The OP was looking for some affordable speaker wire that's good.  I think he has enough info to bury him thanks to the great bunch of posters that come on here, so I won't add to his burden any further.

[pstrisik]

We wish it were this simple.  Many of us spend a lot of time and angst on cables.  We worry about the characteristics of the wire itself, the methods of termination, the materials of the binding posts, even going so far as to elevating the cables off the carpet with special pods or stands.  When we connect this cable to our speakers, the signal travels through the binding post to the internal wire, which is likely completely different cable, and then to the diver(s), which may be connected to the internal wiring by a crimp connector of brass or other metal connection.

One the other end of the cable lies the amplifier.  Again the cable is connected to the amp via a binding post, which is in turn soldered to the secondary winding of an output transformer. This is not even discussing what happens on the primary side of the transformer.

I am firmly in the camp that believes that to a point wire and cable matter.  However, my belief in why and how much it matters has evolved along with my system, what I value about musical reproduction, and how I have come to understand how other, more invasive tweaks can have a greater effect on my system.  I think the point of diminishing returns on cables arrives pretty quickly, and that other system changes such as tube or capacitor choices can have a more significant effect.

Cables and other external tweaks (such as stands and supports) are both necessary (we need something to connect one component to another) and objectively "easy" for most people to implement without actually lifting the hood of their electronics.  There are a lot of people who will spend thousands on these external tweaks but won't change a $2.00 capacitor for a $15.00 capacitor.  Or they will spend $1,500 on speaker but stop at the binding posts.

Well said.  I agree completely! 

[DaveC113]

roscoe, I agree with you for the most part, but on the effects of cable it totally depends on the level of performance expected. If you want to get to a place where both the speakers and your listening room boundaries disappear, and you hear only the recording venue's acoustics (or subtle reverb the engineer added), that takes a whole lot more than what most people experience or are satisfied with and IC cables are absolutely key to achieving it. Copper IC cables will always smooth out this micro-detail and you'll never "get there". With Omega speakers speaker cables can also make a massive difference... but if you only try out the cheaper alternatives you'll never know it because while they are all different sounding, none are comparable to a truly high end cable. I've gone through all this many years ago and ZenWave is a result of that. It's not cheap but it's far less money that any of my competitors and will allow you to have cable that advances the goal of high fidelity to a large degree.

And Louis has said as much himself after sending him my D4 and SMSG speaker cable, he said he heard things from his speakers he's never heard before.

However, I think that good, satisfying results can be achieved without pursuing this level of performance, the illusion of having musicians performing in your living room is fairly easily accomplished and to be fair not all recordings are good enough to pursue much more than that.

CR, "cold-welding" stranded wire is polishing a turd. Set-screws achieve a similar level of performance vs a "cold weld" (which is only a crimp made by a hydraulic tool, it's no big deal at all), and ultimately, speaker level connectors aren't as big of a deal as many other things. A simple pure-copper spade will do, either a thin $2 one from DH Labs or a nice, beefy $20 UPOCC copper one from Furutech... spades are better than bare wire as well, the "bare wire is better than any connector" is a myth because the binding post doesn't make a gas-tight sealed connection like set-screws, solder or a good crimp, and the wire will corrode over time as a result while a plated connector won't.

As far as galvanic corrosion between different metals in the signal chain, if you can provide any proof this has EVER happened I'll be shocked. It's simply a non-issue, as is using the same wire throughout the system... it's actually a bad idea with most wire because then you get excessive characteristics of that one wire type, where if you use several different wire types you're actually more likely to achieve balanced, neutral results. Same with building components, many experts use different types of resistors not just because they are suitable for different applications, but because every resistor has a characteristic sound and if you use multiple resistor types the end result is a more balanced sound than using all one type of resistor.

Audio is a subjective hobby, but if you're pursuing actual HIGH FIDELITY, then there are plenty of objective markers you can use to gauge your success. If you just want things to sound a certain way, that's fine and good, but it's not exactly the same hobby.



 

[Canada Rob]

CR, "cold-welding" stranded wire is polishing a turd. Set-screws achieve a similar level of performance vs a "cold weld" (which is only a crimp made by a hydraulic tool, it's no big deal at all)

As far as galvanic corrosion between different metals in the signal chain, if you can provide any proof this has EVER happened I'll be shocked.

Crass language aside, a cold weld or extreme pressure crimp is far superior to set screws.  Set screws used in conjunction with tinned multi-stranded wire or non tinned multi stranded wire is a cheap and easy way to terminate speaker wire.  I do like set screw terminations on solid core wire though.  Set screws are also nowhere near as oxidation free as cold welding.

Whether you can see it with your naked eye or not, galvanic corrosion is a reality and can effect audio quality depending on the metals used.  It's worse in humid climates than dry climates.  Some different metals will work better together than others, but galvanic corrosion is a reality. 

[jMelvin]

I realize cables tend to be a polarizing topic so I appreciate the info you guys have so thoughtfully shared.

I tend to land in the middle of the pack regarding cables and, like roscoe65, find the law of diminishing returns happens quickly. This, of course, is in my room with my humble gear and not so perfect ears. It's hard for me to wrap my head around spending half the cost of the speakers on wire (or close to half for that matter). Maybe a $350 cable would bring out the best of the Super 3i's. Maybe not. A number of years ago on a different forum I asked for similar recommendations for my newly acquired MMG's ($600) and it was suggested to purchase some $400 Nordost cables. I couldn't even entertain the idea. That's just me.

As Canada Rob has pointed out, y'all have given me enough info to bury me. Thank you for the suggestions.

[DaveC113]

Crass language aside, a cold weld or extreme pressure crimp is far superior to set screws.  Set screws used in conjunction with tinned multi-stranded wire or non tinned multi stranded wire is a cheap and easy way to terminate speaker wire.  I do like set screw terminations on solid core wire though.  Set screws are also nowhere near as oxidation free as cold welding.

Whether you can see it with your naked eye or not, galvanic corrosion is a reality and can effect audio quality depending on the metals used.  It's worse in humid climates than dry climates.  Some different metals will work better together than others, but galvanic corrosion is a reality.

No... The metals used in audio systems are used because they are non-reactive... gold and rhodium being typical. It's not like you're bolting steel and aluminum together then running electricity through the metals in an electroltye bath... that's what causes galvanic corrosion, it's in the physical properties of the metals, 2 metals that are near-immune to any sort of chemical reaction won't form a galvanic cell. Copper and silver are plated together and they never corrode... it's not just 2 metals being together, they need an electrolyte and electricity, and the metals need to have a certain chemical structure. It's a total non-issue in audio systems. No matter what, you should always clean your contacts every 6 month or so, even better treat with Caig progold...  further making galvanic corrosion a total non-issue.

The only place I've ever heard "its best to use the same type of cable everywhere in the system" and bring up galvanic corrosion seems to be right here in the Omega forum, thankfully only occasionally, but IT"S A MYTH! People shouldn't be mislead. It's a fairy tale.

As for set-screws, done correctly they are just as gas tight as a good crimp. Look it up... tons of info on the subject.

[DaveC113]

I realize cables tend to be a polarizing topic so I appreciate the info you guys have so thoughtfully shared.

I tend to land in the middle of the pack regarding cables and, like roscoe65, find the law of diminishing returns happens quickly. This, of course, is in my room with my humble gear and not so perfect ears. It's hard for me to wrap my head around spending half the cost of the speakers on wire (or close to half for that matter). Maybe a $350 cable would bring out the best of the Super 3i's. Maybe not. A number of years ago on a different forum I asked for similar recommendations for my newly acquired MMG's ($600) and it was suggested to purchase some $400 Nordost cables. I couldn't even entertain the idea. That's just me.

As Canada Rob has pointed out, y'all have given me enough info to bury me. Thank you for the suggestions.

I do understand this line of reasoning, but by selecting Omega speakers it means you value some aspects of their performance... Compared to, say, the new ELAC speaker at near the same price, the Omega is going to be much more sensitive to the equipment used with them, more resolving, more cohesive, etc...  Well, it takes a more careful system setup to get the best results from a speaker like the Omega, there's more that can go wrong, but the trade-offs are the possibility of a better result. I say "possibility" because that's what it is, not a guarantee. In terms of overall quality of the rest of the system, below a certain point you're better off with a speaker like the ELAC because it will do more to hide the system's flaws.

So, to a certain point you're right... it doesn't make sense to spend $100k on system to drive $600 speakers. But on the other end the "entry point" might be a bit higher than you think, and you'll be rewarded for exceeding it. Even the least expensive Omega model needs a decent system around it to work as intended. In the specific case of the 3i you probably do need to spend a lot more than the price of the speakers on the rest of the system, and ideally A LOT more, multiples of the price. I've had speakers with RS5 drivers since they came out and the 4.5" hemp drivers since they came out. I've tried a lot of gear with them and I can say YMMV depending on the rest of the system, especially the hemp drivers, it's very easy to make them sound poor. RS5s are much more forgiving but if you want to hear what they are capable of you need a pretty good system to make it happen.

If you, or anyone, thinks the laws of diminishing returns kicks in quickly for anything in audio-land, you just don't have the experience to know better. I'm not trying to be harsh, but these are facts. There's been too many myths in this thread that, if believed, could actually do some harm and forums like this should be a place to learn facts and not myths.

[roscoe65]

I do understand this line of reasoning, but by selecting Omega speakers it means you value some aspects of their performance... Compared to, say, the new ELAC speaker at near the same price, the Omega is going to be much more sensitive to the equipment used with them, more resolving, more cohesive, etc...  Well, it takes a more careful system setup to get the best results from a speaker like the Omega, there's more that can go wrong, but the trade-offs are the possibility of a better result. I say "possibility" because that's what it is, not a guarantee. In terms of overall quality of the rest of the system, below a certain point you're better off with a speaker like the ELAC because it will do more to hide the system's flaws.

So, to a certain point you're right... it doesn't make sense to spend $100k on system to drive $600 speakers. But on the other end the "entry point" might be a bit higher than you think, and you'll be rewarded for exceeding it. Even the least expensive Omega model needs a decent system around it to work as intended. In the specific case of the 3i you probably do need to spend a lot more than the price of the speakers on the rest of the system, and ideally A LOT more, multiples of the price. I've had speakers with RS5 drivers since they came out and the 4.5" hemp drivers since they came out. I've tried a lot of gear with them and I can say YMMV depending on the rest of the system, especially the hemp drivers, it's very easy to make them sound poor. RS5s are much more forgiving but if you want to hear what they are capable of you need a pretty good system to make it happen.

If you, or anyone, thinks the laws of diminishing returns kicks in quickly for anything in audio-land, you just don't have the experience to know better. I'm not trying to be harsh, but these are facts. There's been too many myths in this thread that, if believed, could actually do some harm and forums like this should be a place to learn facts and not myths.

Without discussing specifically a $100k signal chain feeding $600 speakers, we should dispel the myth that a pair of Omega 3's are $700 speakers (Level 1 finish) from a conventional sense.  If we were to directly compare similar types of construction, materials used, and cost of components of Omega speakers vs. other high-end speakers not mass produced in a factory in China were would expect the retail price of these speakers to be higher.  Louis's margins are smaller than they need to be, his component cost is relatively low (few if any crossover components), and he sells direct, avoiding the typical 100% markup between manufacturer and retailer.

I'm going to make the assumption that the materials cost of a pair of Super 3i's in level 1 or 2 finish is about $350.  He sells the Level 1 finish for $700, allowing 50% for labor and overhead.  The Level 2 sells for $1,000 per pair.  Real wood veneer may have only a slightly higher material cost, but requires more time in application, sanding, matching and finishing.  There is also more waste if we are matching grain patterns.  So in all, Louis is allowed $350 to $650 to pay for his time, rent, utilities, packing materials, and other expenses.

We can then compare this to the retail price of a couple of other speakers:  The Harbeth P3ESR probably has a material cost of maybe $500 (it is probably lower but we'll be fair).  These speakers are sold through normal retail channels at about $2,000 - twice the price of a pair of Super 3i's in Level 2 veneer.  Of course, the Harbeths are built in higher volume and likely made in a Chinese factory.  For a more direct comparison, we can look at the Trenner & Friedl Sun loudspeaker.  This speaker (http://www.stereophile.com/content/trenner-friedl-sun-loudspeaker#dSvhjWowtOqOYit4.97) is smaller than the Super 3i and takes different approach but is spiritually similar.  The cost of the drivers alone are about $350, and crossover components would add another $150.  Cabinet components will bring the material cost to about $600-700.  These are retail prices but I doubt they are doing enough volume to get that big of a break on pricing.  Maybe we can knock $100 of the price.  Call it  $600.  These speakers - handmade in Hungary - retail for $3,450, a markup of almost 500%.  There are very well reviewed and reviewers recommend putting $5,000 to $10,000 of equipment in front of them.

Are the Suns 3-5 times as good as Omega Super 3i's?  Unlikely.  They are certainly different.  But because they cost $3,450 we don't hesitate to use $700 speaker cables with them.  But because Omega's cost only $700, we choke on spending that amount on cables.

Canada Rob has stated in the past that Omega speakers cost too little, that if they cost more they would have more street cred.  I'm thankful that Louis charges a fair price for an excellent performer.  It is possible to spend two or three times as much money on speakers and get no better performance.  Likewise, I could Jantzen or Jenson PIO capacitors for pricier Duelands and may experience an increase in performance, but it is unlikely to be proportional to the increase in price from a $15 capacitor to a $150 capacitor.

[DaveC113]

Yes, and I forgot to mention Omegas compare favorably to exotica like Feastrex, Voxativ, really any other single driver at any price. AER might be the best I've heard overall, but side-by-side the Omegas weren't embarrassed, and Feastrex can do vocals and small music extremely well but aren't as good as Omegas at more complex music.

One thing happened recently that was really cool... I had someone with A LOT of audio experience over, he had owned an audio business previously. He heard my speakers, which are RS5 based... they have some mods and implementation is with a 15" woofer and super-tweeter, but the RS5s are the heart of the speaker covering ~400-15,000 Hz. After hearing my system we went to tour Boulder Amplifier's new manufacturing facility which includes a brand new cost-no-object listening room, $500k ish Focal Utopias and 6-figures worth of Boulder electronics. On the way home he commented that he enjoyed listening to my system more than the $1M+ worth of room and gear at Boulder. I'd say it's a trade-off but overall the way my speaker presents the music is different and more engaging. This is just one story, I've had other industry experts over who were blown away and liked my speaker better than most any typical dynamic speaker they've heard.

So, it's no exaggeration that Omega performs far above it's price point, and I can say with great certainty that they deserve top-end gear that costs FAR more than the speakers. However, I understand that's not affordable for all and it's certainly NOT what I started with years ago. But, understanding the big picture is important, and I wish I would've know that a long time ago. This is a hobby and for some it's abouit continuous improvement... that is much harder to accomplish when you don't see a path. If you think a <$2/ft wire is going to be the sweet spot and there's no reason to spend more that's not going to be helpful because it isn't true. My top-end speaker cable in tiny 20g size is $175/ft for a stereo pair NOT including connectors and I can tell you it makes a huge difference over my $39/ft 17g UPOCC copper wire, which is in a whole 'nother league vs the cable discussed in this thread. There is no point of diminishing returns in this either, although a lot of that's a value judgement that I won't make for you, but FOR ME, the expensive wire gets my system where I want it while the less expensive stuff doesn't. It's as simple as that.

[jMelvin]

My brief experience with the Super 3i's tells me these speakers do indeed perform above their price-point and will shine with higher end gear. No debate about it. However, if I wanted to spend significantly more money I would have up-purchased within the Omega line. This is my first foray into single driver speakers and thus, Omega's. I wanted to dip my toe into this world so to speak. BTW, I have some experience with audio, the gear that I just put into storage to accommodate this little project cost me around $8,000 (never mind the other gear in storage). I'm never going to have a $50,000 system or even a $25,000 system, but what I have invested (some wisely, some not so much) is comfortable for me. So FWIW, I have invested in some cables above the $2.00/ft. price-point because I do think cables matter.

This endeavor is for my own curiosity and may lead me down a path where I sell everything and go "all in". I'm certainly open to it. I see/hear the potential and certainly time will tell. For now I would prefer to purchase a speaker cable which has good synergy with the Super 3i's and not break the bank. I can always upgrade at a later time.

[roscoe65]

I think that that is a valid point:  adding an 8-foot pair of Dave's top 17-ga speaker cables would run you about $3,000.  Add that to a pair of $700 Super 3i speakers and you are looking at a $4,000 speaker system including stands.  That same $4,000 would buy a pair of Super Alnico Monitors, stands, and leave you with $500 for speaker cables.

The question is what is the greater musical value:  A $700 pair of speakers with $3,000 speaker cables or a $3,200 pair of speakers with $500 cables?

This sort of odd pairing is not unique.  I'm sure somewhere there is a guy playing a $12,000 Koetsu through a pair of LS35A's.

[DaveC113]

I think that that is a valid point:  adding an 8-foot pair of Dave's top 17-ga speaker cables would run you about $3,000.  Add that to a pair of $700 Super 3i speakers and you are looking at a $4,000 speaker system including stands.  That same $4,000 would buy a pair of Super Alnico Monitors, stands, and leave you with $500 for speaker cables.

The question is what is the greater musical value:  A $700 pair of speakers with $3,000 speaker cables or a $3,200 pair of speakers with $500 cables?

This sort of odd pairing is not unique.  I'm sure somewhere there is a guy playing a $12,000 Koetsu through a pair of LS35A's.

It's actually about half that (price is for a stereo pair), more or less depending on connectors but I'd also argue it's impossible to do any better regardless of price so in comparison to other brands ~$10k+ speaker cables it's a bargain... just depends on how you see it.

Also, it's possible some might like the RS5 better than the Alnicos...

But, I do agree that in general you'll end up with something more satisfying by balancing the system's investment and I'm certainly not saying you can't get good results with a budget system involving the 3is either... it's just that they have potential that's far above their purchase price so imo it's not out of line to spend a larger proportion of the budget on the electronics and cables vs most other speakers.

I started with using a T-amp with my Omegas, budget cables, etc. and over the years things got better and better, seemingly with no limit as to how much they improve with system upgrades. Now I have people preferring my system over super high end conventional speakers.   My reference speakers are Pioneer S-1EX, retail for $10k and are very similar to the $30k TAD evolution series, using the exact same mid/tweeter and very similar woofers. Literally everyone ( a few dozen folks) who has compared my Omega based speakers vs the S-1EX has preferred my speakers.

[roscoe65]

You're not going to get arguments from me about Omegas' capability of accommodating higher end electronics.  In my own Omega-based system I have much more money in amplification than speakers.

Without straying too far from the intent of the original post:

1.  jMelvin has a pair of Super 3i speakers - $700 speakers that play with the big boys.  He needs speaker cables and it sounds as if he's not looking to spend more than $300 or so at this time.

2.  If I were in his shoes, I would find a set of cables (I've made my preference known) that match the bang for the buck aspect of his speakers.

3.  I would then move up the chain and pair the speakers with a SEP or SET amp.  Decware is a common choice, though Wolf Ear Audio, Inspire and other options are equally valid.

4.  I would then approach the source(s).  This would likely round out the system and would probably give you 80% of what you ultimately want.

We now have $1000 in speakers, $1000 in an amp, and $1000 in a DAC.  Add $2000 for room treatments, cables and stands and you've got a really nice $5,000 system.  Adding a subwoofer or two or trading for one of the "better" Omega models would help you out with the bass foundation.  Only then, after I've got a total of about $7,000 in the system would I start getting really esoteric with the system.

[DaveC113]

That would be a great way to go, and fwiw I do recommend spending on interconnect cables before speaker cables. There's potential to lose a lot of fine detail with ICs that you can never get back...

Probably the largest jump in performance came from SET amplification in my journey, mostly because the T-amp was so bad, but amps can really make massive differences, even moreso with teh older hemp drivers... Before the SET amp I was struggling with just getting the basics right and with the SET everything more or less snapped into place.

 

[jMelvin]

A well-thought out and balanced approach is exactly what I'm attempting to do here. If all goes well with the Super 3i's (and I think it's going great) I see a SET amp down the road. DACs I have covered with the Schiit Bifrost Multibit (which I'm using now), a dB Audio Labs Tranquility, and a Chord Qute EX. I also have a pair of subwoofers which I may or may not want to upgrade down to road.

[roscoe65]

That would be a great way to go, and fwiw I do recommend spending on interconnect cables before speaker cables. There's potential to lose a lot of fine detail with ICs that you can never get back...

Probably the largest jump in performance came from SET amplification in my journey, mostly because the T-amp was so bad, but amps can really make massive differences, even moreso with teh older hemp drivers... Before the SET amp I was struggling with just getting the basics right and with the SET everything more or less snapped into place.

 

FWIW, I'm using tin-plated copper speaker cables right now (Supra and WE) but am using Zenwave interconnects.