[Blueone302]

I’m sure what I am about to say is not new to many of us.  That said, I write this because I’m not so sure we reflect enough on how the seemingly simple things involving audio can be very complex.  BTW, that last sentence is an admission of guilt.  Apologies in advance for the length of this.  If you don’t like novels, stop now.

I’ll preface what follows by saying that I do not claim to be an audiophile.  At least I’ve never thought of myself this way.   What I can say is that ever since my early childhood I’ve had a love of everything music.  And if memory serves correctly, I first raided my father’s record collection and record player when I was about ten years old.  I never looked back.  After getting a work permit at the age of fourteen and a half, I saved my money and purchased my first system.  Over the years, I frequented audio dealers in my hometown of Morganton, Hickory and Charlotte, NC.  During this time, I had what I thought were quite a few great sounding systems.   But then came the kids, their love of movies and my move to home theater and surround sound.  I still loved 2 channel sound, but I pretty much put hard core listening on the back burner.

Then, about 9 months ago I began an unintended odyssey back into two channel audio.  You know how it goes.  I had the itch, and was surfing Audiogon and Decware’s classifieds looking for used tube gear, and there is was; a Decware Torii MK IV in like new condition on Audiogon.  But, not wanting to spend the money, I moved on.   But a good friend with whom I shared the find promised I would experience tube nirvana with the Torii.  So I went back, called the advertiser and a week later the Torii had taken residence in my living room.  At the time I had a pair of Definitive Technology BP20 speakers. (Yes, twenty-three years old, but pristine) and a cheap but decent Onkyo 7030 CD player with a Wolfson DAC.   It sounded good.
 
But then, the same friend called and said to make the most of the Torii I needed a really efficient pair of speakers; and of course, he had the cure.  He knew a guy who had a pair of Klipsch Cornwall III’s for sale.  The price was decent.  We dickered a bit, the price got better and a week later I had a pair of Klipsch Cornie III’s added to the mix.  To me, it sounded really good.  In those first few weeks, I thought it was quite the system.  The problem was that I believed it could be better; and of course I wanted better now.

A good chunk of the better I was looking for was the bottom end which I felt was either hit and miss or missing altogether.  So, I began to play with placement.  Actually I played with placement and speaker wire for almost three months.  It was like the bass would come and go.  (See item 2 below.)  It was about this same time that I began to sense a bit of ear fatigue during extended listening sessions with the Cornwall’s. I termed this as being too bright or strident, especially on the upper register and female vocals.
   
So I talked, discussed, called around and did the forum thing.  I tried various speaker wires, suspending the Cornie’s on Brass Cones and all kinds of other voodoo measures.  It sounded good; maybe better in an incremental way.  But I wanted it to sound a lot better.  I love a good bass line; I wanted to hear it and if called for, I wanted to feel it.

Meanwhile, it gets crazier.  From the start I wanted a pre to pair with the amp because I wanted to use multiple sources and had plans to transfer all my cd’s to some type of hard drive format.  I had no more than bought the amp than Decware came out with the ZTPRE.  But it was outside my budget.  Then, during the height of the bass conundrum I had a friend send me a review of a variation on Bill Mottram’s line stage that was being built by Don Sachs.  I read every review I could find, talked to a few owners on the forums and then actually emailed Don.  He responded back with a phone call and after fretting over my desire for a pre a bit longer, I jumped in with both feet.  As mentioned, my initial desire was for the ZTPRE, but along with the fear of further depleting our savings, I also wanted to stay with the retro look.  Don was also offering a remote option and was willing to change the output capacitors to a pair of Duelund CAST PIO-Cu’s. (A standard option now.)  I had read numerous reviews on the Duelund’s.  Although most reviews and even the company stated they were a pain to burn in, the end result was said to be glorious.  Two months later I had Don’s line state in the living room and introduced into the mix.  Right out of the box, even before burn in the sound was better.  The Decware Torii was giving me things in terms of instrument and vocal articulation, sound stage and presence I had never heard in many of my recordings.  Once I introduced the pre, the sound seemed clearer, richer and I found a lot of recordings to be life like with a 3-D or holographic sound stage.  At the same time, it seemed like the bass I did have was more tight and defined. I was making progress.

Meanwhile, when I described my perceived bass deficiency to Don Sachs, he made a couple of speaker suggestions.  One was that I look into the M3’s made by Spatial Audio.  I researched and read a lot.  I talked to several owners.  I also followed reviews on quite a few threads via several forums.  Everything I read and was told implied or suggested how the M3 Turbo S model was the best thing since sliced bread.  I called Clayton Shaw the owner; and guess what? Three weeks later I had a pair added to the mix.  Clayton suggested that I play them loud and often.  I did.  In fact, I played them day and night to run them in. They sounded great.  But after 150 hours, still no bass, or not the kind I was looking for.  Don’t get me wrong, they were excellent speakers, but as their bloodline and heritage is derived from live sound reinforcement, they reminded me a lot of a DJ set up I had years ago using commercial TOA speakers.   They could shake the room; and they were in your face with a really sweet high register.  They sounded good in a different way, but something was still missing.

Enter (again) the friend who had turned me onto Decware. He told me how years back he had visited Bob Ziegler or Zygi, the primary builder of Decware speakers and how knowledgeable he was.  As it turned out, Bob had moved from Hudson NC to Conover NC; and my friend said “you should visit, check out the speakers and ask him about the bass issue”.   Well, I love wood working and music; and with Zygi living just up the road from me, the visit was a no brainer.   Besides, with so many people on the Decware forums swearing by the HR’s, I was hoping to hear them for myself.  So I called Bob and asked if I could drop in and check things out.  Bob promised to call me when he got close to finishing the next pair of HR’s.  A few weeks later, he did.  Zygi then informed me that the person who had ordered one of the pairs was not going to be able to take them.  He asked if I was interested.  Being stupid, but not shy, I asked if I liked them, could I take them home to audition in my room where I already had three other pair in the mix (The Cornwall III’s, My Definitive BP 20’s and The Spatial M3 Turbo S’s.)  He graciously agreed.

A couple of days later, an audio friend and myself took off to see Zygi.  As it turned out, hearing is believing.  He had just finished the second pair and had them running in his shop.  I immediately took notice. The HR’s sounded very nice across the entire audio spectrum.  Plus, in his shop and with no run in, the bass seemed to pretty much there.  After listening and talking for an hour or so, we were headed home, the HR’s safely cradled in blankets in the back.

Meanwhile, I had previously made plans to have a few friends come over and listen to our various line stages and amps and my assortment of speakers.  Now plus one, the HR’s changed the timetable.  I made calls that evening and all the ones that live in town were willing to show up the next Monday.  (My day off)

in the end, we auditioned the Decware Torii MK IV, a Vinnie Rossi LIO, (Sorry Jason, I still want you to bring yours over.)  A Yaqin EL 34 amp and a Class D Audio 600 WPC amp.  For speakers we listened to the Def Techs, the Spatial’s, the Cornwall’s and of course the HR-1’s.
We played music for several hours lugging those speakers in and out of the room, swapping the amps around.

During the process, we all settled on the Decware Torii and the HR’s as the gear with the best sound and great synergy.  It was obvious that the Decware amp and the HR-1’s had something special together.  Everyone noticed and everyone agreed.
 
As regards the outcome.  In all fairness, the room my system is located in is a cookie cutter shape with four doors; one of which is a five foot set of French doors offset to the right rear of the listening position.  After all the experimentation I believe the HR’s just work better in this setting.  But, I also believe the Decware Torii MK IV and the HR’s were built/made for each other.
 
Now, in case you haven’t figured this out, what I was not in this process was patient.   I spent a lot of time and yes for me, quite a bit of money on this experiment.  Most of you know the shipping fees alone one incurs when sending equipment back. Thankfully, I have a wife that wanted and still wants me to be happy with the system.   This being said, the end result is that I have some marvelous sound right now.  The Decware Amp, the Don Sach’s Model 2 Line Stage (SP-14), an Oppo BDP 105D as source and also used for streaming TIDAL; all played through the HR-1’s.  At this stage the sound is staggeringly good.  Over and over I findin myself smiling…. amazed at the sound and how lifelike it is. 
The best part is that with the HR-1’s pretty much run in…..  I’m not missing the bass.  If it’s in the recording, the HR’s can produce it.  I’m guessing I have approximately 500 hours on them.
 
Okay, so after you’ve read my novel, here’s the point or actually the caveat.  What I now realize is that I went about this entire process the wrong way.
 
If I had this to do over:
I would have worked on this process one piece at a time.  I should have gotten the amp squared away and allowed the tubes to season before adding the pre or new speakers, or source.  Adding all the pieces in such a haphazard fashion did not in any way help the evaluation process.  In fact, I’m darned lucky to have ended up where I am.  And…. the rush I placed on implementing the system and getting acceptable sound cost both time and money.
 
Speaker run in.  Based on what I have experienced with the Cornwall’s, the Spatial’s and now the HR’s, all speakers need run in hours.  All three changed during the time I was listening/auditioning.  To be specific, after so much frustration with the Cornwalls, I called the guy back I bought them from. Apparently he bought them on a whim.  (Sound familiar?)  He never even got 100 hours on them before he moved on.  They had been sitting for almost a year.  The end result is that I was in effect running them in from the beginning and didn’t know it.   Yes, they sounded better in the end.  And yes, everyone who heard the comparison still preferred the HR’s.  The good and bad news is, I have them to sell.


Placement.  The thing that put the HR’s over the top and ultimately disqualified the Cornwall’s and the Spatial M3 Turbo S’s was/is placement.  Truth is, I feel sure the HR-1’s bested the others in part because of the room layout and design.  But, playing with placement not only helped me get the best out of the HR’s, it also revealed to me that the Spatial’s and the Cornwall’s would never be an optimum choice for this room.  To, be sure, I just didn’t have the optimal walls and corners to put the CWIII’s on.  Similarly, the Spatial’s needed to be way out in the floor for optimal sound; so much so in my case that I felt like they were invading my listening space.  The best news is that as advertised, the HR-1’s are not necessarily placement specific.  And the better news is that with the HR-1’s versatility, I’m not sacrificing anything in terms of sound.  Still, I cannot emphasize the right placement enough.  I feel so strong about this that after finding the best sounding placement, I did the following.  I inserted a safety pin in the center of my listening chair at the optimal height for myself.  I then tied a piece of twine to another safety pin.  About once per week I re-center the speakers on the long wall facing my chair and measure from the chair to the outside front top corner of the HR’s, insuring the perfect triangulation.  This is because when I get up and down, the chair moves in tiny increments front to back and side to side.  I found that this can and does affect the sound.  When we vacuum, I remeasure.  I’m convinced this is very important. 
Haste makes waste.  As stated I’m sure my lack of patience hindered the process.  I realize now that trying to evaluate four separate components simultaneously was foolish.  It is hard enough to evaluate one specific piece, let alone four.  I should have taken my time and been more systematic in my approach.  Again, I am fortunate to find myself where I am.

Why the journey's been worth it.  I’ve learned a lot in a relatively short time frame.  I’ve had a chance to try out and hear a lot of great equipment.  I’ve also been impressed with the people who although in business to make a profit, are willing to take the time to speak one on one with those who like me don’t have a clue.  First off, Steve Deckert of Decware was more than willing to talk amps and options when I was looking at used gear; not new gear.  Clayton Shaw of Spatial Audio for all intent and purposes allowed me to spend forty-five days with an excellent pair of top notch open baffle speakers and talked to me several times about his product.  Like the others, Tom Ross of Class D Audio gave of his time to answer questions.  The latter two gentlemen were very classy when I told them I had settled on the Decware components because of their versatility and synergy.  Don Sachs who built the line stage for me probably hates to check his email.  He has been very patient, always helpful and extremely knowledgeable.  And then there’s Zygi who allowed me to invade his work space and home to discover the HR-1’s.  These gentlemen and others like them are one of the reasons this hobby is so enjoyable.  And finally, there are the countless others who in person, in email and on forums have become audio pals sharing their accumulated knowledge and audio odyssey.  I'm a lucky guy!   

[Rocket_Ronny]

I hope you did not post this on a smart phone. Whew. 

Glad you have landed.

Rocket Ronny

[OzarkTom]

My buddy Rex bought the plans for Steve's DNA Horn speakers for $19.95 two months ago. It cost him $300 in parts to build them, and he is extremely happy.

Rex has owned most everything under the sun including Avantgardes, KEF LS50's, Quad 63's, and Stacked Quads.

[jarcher]

Aside from perhaps buying the Klipsch without hearing them, I don't really see any "mistakes" here. You've been able to rengage in something you love, learned things and met interesting people in the process, and seems to have settled on gear you like. Many audiophiles should be so lucky!

Welcome to AC!  Great people and good advice.  But remember always to let your ears and heart make the final decisions before plunking down your hard earned money!

[Blueone302]

R Ron...  Yeah, I know what I wrote  was a bit long winded.  But for some odd reason I felt like I needed to write it. 

Tom.... The Decware stuff has a loyal fan base.  But.... I'll admit to being on the fence even after I bought the amp.  However, after some quality time with the amp and speakers, all I can say is that they seem to have some very special synergy together.  But, as an aside, the D. Sachs pre sure isn't hurting the sound either. 

[JLM]

Thanks for sharing.

Hunting for gear is half the fun of being an audiophile, but can be a real hassle.  And like many endeavors time = money.  You can spend time searching for gear and learning the ropes thereby saving money, or not, an individual call.  Having a knowledgable friend and being able to home audition so many speakers at once seems to have really helped you climb the learning curve quickly. 

Was a DecHead wanna be for years, really liked most of what the company represented, but back then the biggest amp they offered was the 12 wpc original Rachel and couldn't find high efficiency speakers I liked.  Actually Zygi loaned me his Rachel to try out, but even having come back directly from Steve after repairs it had some nasty distortions.  But worse yet it had poorly dampened (bloated) bass (on single driver speakers!).  OTOH it had tube palpability in spades.  Then a few years ago, wanting to scratch the tube itch again, Steve recommended the ZMA (mystery amp) over the Torii, but the price was beyond what I wanted to spend.  Ended up with a top of the line Prima Luna, but it lacked tube magic and ended up staying with solid state.

Yeah, I'm a single driver/active design speaker fan and yet a believer in the need for foundational bass and life-like output levels for a system to qualify as "audiophile grade", so have an idea of the struggles you went through.  As an old fart didn't want to hear differences in cables or burn in, but had the chance to home audition 9 USB cables (how can they burn in?).  But after taking notes and comparing dozens of the same recordings on each cable that's what I found.  Like you found, it makes finding the right component that much harder. 

[Johnny2Bad]

There is absolutely no reason, in today's market where there is more choice than there has ever been for high fidelity audio gear, that everyone cannot have the exact system they desire and meets their needs entirely. When I started in this hobby there were perhaps 1/10th the number of products available, and we had no problem building systems perfectly suited to the listener.

Now, I was in audio retail for a while back in the " Golden Age" of the late 1970's and early 80's. We sold a fairly large array of products, and I am not ashamed to say that the items most sought after by collectors today, you could have bought new from me.

The single most important job of someone like myself, working in a "Bricks and Mortar" store, is to choose the right components for the customer based on questions I ask of you. Put simply, there is really nothing more important than that skill, and it's why you shop there in the first place.

Once I decided what to show the customer, I would then offer a choice of products, and that choice would be limited to at most three components in a given category, sometimes it was only one. And my value as an employee was based entirely on how happy my customers were with the system I chose for them.

That doesn't exist today to much of a degree. For one, the customer thinks they know more than I did about what fits with what. You cannot select audio gear from a laundry list; it simply doesn't work that way. Components must fit with the other components in the system.

Secondly, the audio reseller of today is either based on price (Best Buy, etc) and the sales staff have no audio skills, which means they do select the components they offer you from a laundry list. Won't work. Or the proper High End reseller has only very expensive gear to show, and someone entering the hobby can't afford what they offer. I say this while maintaining that anyone can have a true High End Sound System today for less than $1000.00

But to do that, you need someone like me. I do help many people with buying decisions even today, 35 years after I left the industry. Some of those who seek my help will never get it a second time, however. If you ignore my advice, you will be on your own from that point onwards. Good Luck.

That is also why I rarely offer any advice online. People ask, but don't listen. So I say nothing.

" ... I’ll preface what follows by saying that I do not claim to be an audiophile. ..."

Then why are you buying HiFi gear? An "audiophile" is someone who enjoys listening to music via a playback system. If you sit down and listen to an audio system ... ANY audio system ... rather than play the radio while you do the laundry, then you are an audiophile. It has nothing to do with the equipment ... there are no "audiophile components" ... because the term refers to a person and that person's listening habits, not a device you can buy.

[dB Cooper]

That is also why I rarely offer any advice online. People ask, but don't listen. So I say nothing.

This type of person, who always asks your advice but never takes it, is referred to by some as an "askhole".

Then why are you buying HiFi gear? An "audiophile" is someone who enjoys listening to music via a playback system. If you sit down and listen to an audio system ... ANY audio system ... rather than play the radio while you do the laundry, then you are an audiophile. It has nothing to do with the equipment ... there are no "audiophile components" ... because the term refers to a person and that person's listening habits, not a device you can buy.

I disagree a little bit here... I have known many people who enjoy listening to music, sometimes on decent component systems, who are not 'audiophiles'... To me, an 'audiophile' is someone who is interested in the science, art, and technology of reproducing sound, beyond just taking it out of the box, setting it up, and putting on some music. At least, that's what it used to mean.

[JLM]

We have a dedicated audio/HT shop about an hour away that is very poorly informed of what is available.  It's not a high-end place, selling Anthem/Paradigm, Marantz, and Denon plus video gear.  It's located a 2 hour drive from a major metropolitan center with no other shops closer.  Don't believe they look at audio message boards, read on-line reviews, or ever attend audio shows.  Last time I stopped in, they barely knew what a DAC was, had never heard of ripping music, had never experienced a single driver speaker, and didn't know what a class T amp was. 

So the range of knowledgable shops can vary widely.  And shops are limited to knowing/recommending what they sell (and what sells). 

[Blueone302]

The last several posts reflect in large part to why I went the route I did in research and eventual purchasing.  I especially agree on the "poorly informed" comment.  There are few really good true audio store fronts near my home any more.  The ones I used to frequent are for the most part gone.  The ones remaining say in Charlotte are over priced and under staffed in terms of knowledge base.  What I mean is if I come into say a car dealership or a high end audio shop prepared to make a purchase, you can bet that I've done my homework and at the least have a good working knowledge of the product.  So when I start asking questions and you (a) either blow smoke, or (b) seem dumbfounded by the most basic of questions, I'm probably gonna walk.  One of the most refreshing things I've noticed talking to the Steve Deckert's, Don Sach's and Bob Zeigler's of this industry is they know their stuff.  Moreover, they know their stuff well enough to understand the importance of a customer; whether in person, over the phone or via an order placed via the net. 

[Russell Dawkins]

I disagree a little bit here... I have known many people who enjoy listening to music, sometimes on decent component systems, who are not 'audiophiles'... To me, an 'audiophile' is someone who is interested in the science, art, and technology of reproducing sound, beyond just taking it out of the box, setting it up, and putting on some music. At least, that's what it used to mean.

Then you would agree with John Ötvös, designer of the highly regarded speakers some may remember, the Waveform Mach 17 (Telarc bought 4 sets), who said this to me in an email.

'The audiophile in the room, is the first one to begin speakin' after the music starts playin'.'

[opnly bafld]

'The audiophile in the room, is the first one to begin speakin' after the music starts playin'.'

GTGs are for evaluating gear right?
I don't go to listen to (mostly crap IMO) music.
I listen to music at home (no talking).

[dB Cooper]

Good food for thought, Blueone. In any experiment (which is what upgrading your system often is, at least to a certain extent), you get the most useful results by changing only one variable at a time.

[dB Cooper]

Then you would agree with John Ötvös, designer of the highly regarded speakers some may remember, the Waveform Mach 17 (Telarc bought 4 sets), who said this to me in an email.

'The audiophile in the room, is the first one to begin speakin' after the music starts playin'.'

Or with Alan Parsons...




(I've been guilty too....)

[charmerci]

Or with Alan Parsons...


(I've been guilty too....)

What about those of us who do both?

[OzarkTom]

IMO, I believe what this article says from Snell. Your listening room is #1.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0502/

Then matching the speaker to your room is #2.

[Blueone302]

Tom,

I'm in the ministry.  The congregation I currently serve has a parsonage.  I came here from another congregations where I had a housing allowance and of course did what I wanted with A/V space.  In the current setting, I live in a very nice church parsonage.  However, I do so at the expense of their reluctance to allow me to treat the room adequately.  This reality (The Challenge of the Room) was/is in large part what I was battling during my speaker/amp sampling.  Enter again the Omni Hybrid design of the HR-1's.  (Guess I've become a shameless proponent.)  These forgiving speakers along with some very basic non professional invisible to the naked eye treatments have helped immensely.  So yes, to your point the room was a major factor in my journey.  Does this mitigate my impatience and mistakes?  No.  But it did muddy the water.

[Johnny2Bad]

This type of person, who always asks your advice but never takes it, is referred to by some as an "askhole".

I disagree a little bit here... I have known many people who enjoy listening to music, sometimes on decent component systems, who are not 'audiophiles'... To me, an 'audiophile' is someone who is interested in the science, art, and technology of reproducing sound, beyond just taking it out of the box, setting it up, and putting on some music. At least, that's what it used to mean.

I know many people whom I would consider audiophiles ... they enjoy sitting down and listening to music on the system they own ... who don't know the first thing about their system, or it's technology. They have a few trusted people whose advice they take without question, they don't even set up their own systems but have someone do it for them, and they don't think about it a second longer than necessary.

I understand that many dive into the technology with a keen interest in the equipment itself, but I consider them hobbyists whose hobby happens to be audio. I count myself amongst them, truth be told. And I know some who take it much too far ... who care about the gear more than the music. I simply consider them to be fetishists. And Audio is far from the only pursuit where you can find all three kinds of people. I also know talented racers who couldn't turn a wrench if you held their family hostage as an incentive. But they still are racers in my book.

I have a friend who is a machinist and is a lifelong Harley-Davidson enthusiast. But if he couldn't ride a Big Twin, he'd ride a 2-stroke Suzuki until he could somehow get back into what he prefers. He has a saying about people who wouldn't do the same, who care more about what they are *seen* riding than on the riding experience itself ... "They just don't give a **** about bikes."

And when it comes to audio, some people "just don't give a **** about music."

[sebrof]

That is also why I rarely offer any advice online. People ask, but don't listen. So I say nothing.

Maybe they are listening to someone else? Oftentimes when someone doesn't take our advice we think they aren't listening, when in fact they are just taking the advice of someone else.

And I know some who take it much too far ... who care about the gear more than the music. I simply consider them to be fetishists.

I simply consider them gear heads and doing what they want to do. You make it sound like a bad thing.