[Starchild]

I recently purchased the album Cyrille Aimee + Friends : Live at Smalls on HD Tracks.  The album was advertised as "Available in Audiophile 48kHz/24bit" as you can see here.

While listening to the album, I noticed that my dac was swiching sample rates between songs.  Closer inspection revealed that some of the songs were 48/24 and some were 96/24.  When I made HD Tracks aware of this, they pointed me to the "about album page" which identifies the sampling rates for each track.  My beef with them was that the two pages were inconsistent.  Please see the screen prints below.






I'm not trying to besmirch HD Tracks because they actually have no control over the content.  However, I did point out to them that they had control over the accessibiltiy of the information.  Ultimately there's no harm other than I might not have purchased the album if I was aware of the mixing of sampling rates.  I will read the about this album pages befoore buying future downloads from HD Tracks.  Caveat Emptor!

[rbbert]

There are quite a few albums, usually single artist anthologies, with a mixture of sampling rates.  All the ones I know of (probably only a small percentage, though) have this clearly noted on the info page, always worth checking for other reasons too.  HDTracks provides little enough info as it is, I wouldn't criticize them much for this problem

[undertow]

Not sure I really see the negative downside to their advertising one way or the other?

Now if it was the opposite problem with them having 4 or 5 tracks popping up in 44/16 or something then I could see the complaint.

I am not defending that the info should not be more clear, but honestly I don't see the issue here with them giving you higher rate samples than you supposedly paid for anyway mixed in.

[Phil A]

The only downside I see to that is if your DAC was very old and just did 48kHz (like the Micro Mega Duo Pro I owned many moons ago).  They probably should at least make the asterisk and text bold and/or a litter bigger.

[Starchild]

Not sure I really see the negative downside to their advertising one way or the other?

Now if it was the opposite problem with them having 4 or 5 tracks popping up in 44/16 or something then I could see the complaint.

I am not defending that the info should not be more clear, but honestly I don't see the issue here with them giving you higher rate samples than you supposedly paid for anyway mixed in.

I'm not complaining as much as I'm just sharing the information.  I acknowledged that HD Tracks has no control on the content but they do control how they advertise the content.  I'd just rather that the songs all have the same sampling rate.  The information on the first album page lead me to believe that they were all the same.  It's my fault that I didn't read the second page.  However, there advertisement was inconsistent and I just wanted folks to be aware.  Nothing more.  By the way, my dac audibly clicks when sampling rates change.  I probably wouldn't have noticed it other wise.

[Starchild]

Not sure I really see the negative downside to their advertising one way or the other?

Now if it was the opposite problem with them having 4 or 5 tracks popping up in 44/16 or something then I could see the complaint.

I am not defending that the info should not be more clear, but honestly I don't see the issue here with them giving you higher rate samples than you supposedly paid for anyway mixed in.

I just prefer that all songs on album have the same sampling rate.  If I had seen that information I probably wouldn't have purchased it.  Anyhow, I thought I was sharing an observation not a complaint (though I must admit it irritated me when I found out).  It could very well have been the other way around.  My point was to make folks aware of the possibility of sample rates in the album that are different than advertised.  Nothing more.

[undertow]

I understand I was just pointing out "Technically" this is really a non-issue, but of course some people have older DAC's, or problems with Software they try to decode these back, and it may cause an issue or glitch just between tracks. In your case it's not an issue or glitch but the fact your unit seems to trigger a relay to switch over making an audible annoyance.

In any case I agree they could display info more clear, and many of these albums are overpriced anyway. Which I think that is why they send out 15 to 20% off coupons every other month because they could sell most of them at 13 to 16 bucks anyway on a regular basis.

Oh well.

[Phil A]

I basically don't buy unless there is a coupon.  What probably bugs me is that sometimes they may put stuff on there that is upsampled vs. real hi-rez and then after someone analyzes the file and it becomes known they make the changes then.  However, it has often been that way with most music purchases in that at the time of the purchase one doesn't know the source.  For example, if something was recording at 24/96, I'd much rather buy 24/96 vs. an SACD or DSD file.  Unfortunately as consumers we don't have a choice as to what gets released on a particular format.  So I buy whichever good one is available vs. worry about the merits and just enjoy the music.  Sometimes the theory arguments get overly intense and I just don't see the point as I have no control as to what format something is released on.  Sometimes those with a vested interest (e.g. their business model is based on hi-rez PCM or SACD) tend to forget that the consumer doesn't dictate to record labels what format it should be released on.

[*Scotty*]

Starchild, I would advise you to download spek, which is free software that will allow you to perform a spectral analysis of the tracks. See link,http://spek.cc/ The resulting spectrogram will show the bit rate and sample rate of the program material as well as showing the audio bandwidth used by the track. You can easily see the presence of a brickwall filter at 24kHz which goes with the 24/48 sample rate if the track is really 24/96 the brickwall will appear at 48kHz. The brickwall filter at any frequency will appear as a sharp line across spectrogram at the frequency of the cutoff filter.
 You may have all 24/48 mastered tracks but some may have been re-sampled to 24/96 thus wastefully putting the same information into a bigger bucket. If all tracks have the same sharp line at 24kHz and a total absence of high frequency content above 24kHz, then it is all 24/48  irregardless of the size of the bucket it is in.
Scotty

This is PCM file analysis only.

[Starchild]

Starchild, I would advise you to download spek, which is free software that will allow you to perform a spectral analysis of the tracks. See link,http://spek.cc/ The resulting spectrogram will show the bit rate and sample rate of the program material as well as showing the audio bandwidth used by the track. You can easily see the presence of a brickwall filter at 24kHz which goes with the 24/48 sample rate if the track is really 24/96 the brickwall will appear at 48kHz. The brickwall filter at any frequency will appear as a sharp line across spectrogram at the frequency of the cutoff filter.
 You may have all 24/48 mastered tracks but some may have been re-sampled to 24/96 thus wastefully putting the same information into a bigger bucket. If all tracks have the same sharp line at 24kHz and a total absence of high frequency content above 24kHz, then it is all 24/48  irregardless of the size of the bucket it is in.
Scotty


This is PCM file analysis only.

Scotty,

I'll check that out out.  Thanks for the tip.

Mike

[Starchild]

I basically don't buy unless there is a coupon.  What probably bugs me is that sometimes they may put stuff on there that is upsampled vs. real hi-rez and then after someone analyzes the file and it becomes known they make the changes then.  However, it has often been that way with most music purchases in that at the time of the purchase one doesn't know the source.  For example, if something was recording at 24/96, I'd much rather buy 24/96 vs. an SACD or DSD file.  Unfortunately as consumers we don't have a choice as to what gets released on a particular format.  So I buy whichever good one is available vs. worry about the merits and just enjoy the music.  Sometimes the theory arguments get overly intense and I just don't see the point as I have no control as to what format something is released on.  Sometimes those with a vested interest (e.g. their business model is based on hi-rez PCM or SACD) tend to forget that the consumer doesn't dictate to record labels what format it should be released on.

Agreed.  I don't buy hi-res files with out some kind of a coupon or sale discount.  Recently I stumbled across a very cheap 24/192 Dexter Gordon download for only $6.87 at 7digital.  I think they may have priced it that way because it's only 3 songs but I bought it without hesitation.  It sounds great.  Check it out.

https://us.7digital.com/artist/dexter-gordon/release/one-flight-up-remastered-2015-5719407?f=20%2C19%2C12%2C16%2C17



Mike

[Phil A]

It does sound good - thanks!

[Rocket]

Hi Guys,

There are so many titles on HDTracks that I want to purchase but there are region restrictions. 

I'm feeling disappointed again...

Cheers Rod

[Starchild]

Starchild, I would advise you to download spek, which is free software that will allow you to perform a spectral analysis of the tracks. See link,http://spek.cc/ The resulting spectrogram will show the bit rate and sample rate of the program material as well as showing the audio bandwidth used by the track. You can easily see the presence of a brickwall filter at 24kHz which goes with the 24/48 sample rate if the track is really 24/96 the brickwall will appear at 48kHz. The brickwall filter at any frequency will appear as a sharp line across spectrogram at the frequency of the cutoff filter.
 You may have all 24/48 mastered tracks but some may have been re-sampled to 24/96 thus wastefully putting the same information into a bigger bucket. If all tracks have the same sharp line at 24kHz and a total absence of high frequency content above 24kHz, then it is all 24/48  irregardless of the size of the bucket it is in.
Scotty

This is PCM file analysis only.

Hi Scotty,

I down loaded the Spek software and it's very interesting.  Below is a screenshot from one of the 24/96 tracks from the Cyrille  Aimee album that was labeled 24/48.



This screenshot is from the John Coltrane album Live at the Village Vanguard at 24/192.
 


This is a screen shot from the Dextter Gordon album One Flight Up at 24/192.



Very very interesting.  Have the last two files been merely just been upsampled?  Is this the provenance issue.  Thoughts?

Thanks Scotty for this valuable information.  I think you've created a monster.

Mike

[Phil A]

Hi Guys,

There are so many titles on HDTracks that I want to purchase but there are region restrictions. 

I'm feeling disappointed again...

Cheers Rod

Did not realize that.  It's kind of stupid as setting up an email address or using a server in another location is certainly something that happens all the time.  It's not confined to audio.  Sales tax laws in the US were written in the 1930s and 1940s (and sometimes are still not updated).  The economy of that point were sales of tangible personal property. If a service was performed back then it took place in a locality.  With digital services type services, they can be performed anywhere. Some jurisdictions try to tax it where the recipient is which may be an entirely different place to where the service is performed.  I don't think some industries have caught up with the current state of the world.

[Phil A]

Much of the time when I look at buying hi-rez, I'll look here (obviously if it is a newer release it may not be there):

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=john+coltrane&album=live+at+the+village+vanguard

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=dexter+gordon&album=

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=norah+jones&album=come+away+with+me

[*Scotty*]

Hi Mike, it sure looks to me like the last two have been upsampled. The Hi-rez downloads I have, frequently show evidence of this practice. As long as there seems to be a demand for a higher sample rate version of an album they will sell it to us. I suspect most of time we will be lucky to get 24/48 transfers of older analogue masters. 
Scotty

[Starchild]

After seeing the spek output and reading the interview with Dr. Mark Waltrep on Audiostream, I'm becoming less inclined to buy remastered marketed as hi-res.  The interview is below:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/musical-provenance-tracking-tracks-mark-waldrep#Jfqe7AuupdsvZDVl.97

[firedog]

I basically don't buy unless there is a coupon.  What probably bugs me is that sometimes they may put stuff on there that is upsampled vs. real hi-rez and then after someone analyzes the file and it becomes known they make the changes then.

I know of only one instance I can remember where this has happened in the last couple of years at HDT. Once it was a bigger problem (labels supplied fake hi-res), but HDT started testing files a couple of years ago to make sure they weren't upsampled and AFAIR the problem has pretty much stopped happening.

They've always said they don't upsample anything themselves, and they do now try to make sure they and us aren't being ripped off by upsamples.

In the past, when I wrote to them with my order number about an album that was shown to fake hi-res, they either gave me a credit for the amount I paid or  supplied me with actual hi-res files at no charge.

[firedog]

After seeing the spek output and reading the interview with Dr. Mark Waltrep on Audiostream, I'm becoming less inclined to buy remastered marketed as hi-res.  The interview is below:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/musical-provenance-tracking-tracks-mark-waldrep#Jfqe7AuupdsvZDVl.97

Waldrup has his point of view. Many don't agree, including many industry professionals who are at least as qualified as him.

Personally, some of the best sounding albums I have are well done analog recordings transferred to hi-res PCM or DSD.
I have no problem with them being called hi-res, as long as the fact that they come from tape is acknowledged.

I don't have the possibility of listening to actual master tapes of these albums, so listening to a hi-res transcription of the master tape is the best version of the album I'm ever going to get. I have a few examples like that where I also own the LP or CD, and the hi-res version is the best sounding one. I'm fine with that.