[doggie]

I am selling my wonderful Super 6 Alnico floor-standing speakers in order to move up to Omega's flagship High Output model. I love these speakers but know that Louis as always has something better.

See my add in the For Sale/Trade Forum.

[doggie]

I received my new Super Alnico Hi Outputs. They are wonderful and I hope to give them a review soon.

I still have my Super's for sale. While I feel that the Hi Outputs do excel in several areas listening to them made me realize how good the Super 6's are in their own right....

[mrvco]

Are you using the FirstWatt amp with the HOs?  If so, I'm curious how it handles the 4ohm load versus the 8ohm Super 6's.

[RDavidson]

Are you using the FirstWatt amp with the HOs?  If so, I'm curious how it handles the 4ohm load versus the 8ohm Super 6's.

The 4 ohm load that HO Omegas present shouldn't be a problem for any First Watt amp, especially considering the high sensitivity of Omegas (and their easy to drive electromechanical nature - ie super light cones coupled to very strong motors). And with dual drivers the sensitivity is even greater. A small tube amp would struggle much more with the greater 4 ohm load than an SS amp.

[mrvco]

The reason I ask is because, while the SIT-2 is rated down to 4 ohms, the product page on the FirstWatt site says specifically "...and the SIT-2 amplifier has been adjusted for most optimal sound in the region around 8 ohms."

[RDavidson]

Oh I see. I'd still be very surprised if he was getting less than stellar sound, but interesting to know the outcome nonetheless. You have to consider the bigger picture, not just the load rating. In general, I think most 4 ohm rated speakers also tend to have average / low sensitivity. The SIT-2 would be fine, but not performing optimally in that situation. While the HO Omegas aren't an 8 ohm load, their increased sensitivity and output will negate most of the effect of their 4 ohm load. Similarly, the standard single driver Omegas are an easier load, but their sensitivity and output isn't as high. So there's a bit of give or take between the standard Omegas and HO Omegas.

[doggie]

I finally received the Super Alnico High Output speakers and so am still getting used to them. I am powering them with my 10 watt SIT2 and I would say that dynamics are excellent so I would consider that a sign that they work fine with the 4-6 ohm specified impedance. I agree that the higher efficiency helps offset an increased need for current.

I want to play more with room placement and using the port blocking "nerf" balls before starting to draw more conclusions but they definitely sound different than the Super 6 Alnicos. They have a more full and rich sound and as advertised have a larger sound stage and handle large complex orchestral pieces much better. In terms of detail, clarity and instrument localization they are very similar to the Super 6's.

To be honest the Super 6's hold up very well in comparison but I will enjoy trying a low power DHT tube amp and also the ability to play complex music at "scare the cat" levels

[Canada Rob]

A small tube amp would struggle much more with the greater 4 ohm load than an SS amp.

It depends on the tube amp.  The pre-UFO Zens love low impedance as the lower the impedance goes, the more power it puts out.  The UFO Zens and the Kitoki both have 4 and 8 ohm taps on their OPTs so 4 ohms shouldn't present any problems.  My guess is the other Decware amps with UFO OPTs should also work well with 4 ohms.  I can't speak for other tube amps though as what you say may be the case in some instances.

[roscoe65]

It depends on the tube amp.  The pre-UFO Zens love low impedance as the lower the impedance goes, the more power it puts out.  The UFO Zens and the Kitoki both have 4 and 8 ohm taps on their OPTs so 4 ohms shouldn't present any problems.  My guess is the other Decware amps with UFO OPTs should also work well with 4 ohms.  I can't speak for other tube amps though as what you say may be the case in some instances.

It sounds like the pre-UFO's had a high impedance output transformer, and as the speaker impedance fell the reflected impedance to the output tube approached a more ideal operating point for the EL84 (5K or so).  What we would expect to see is a low power into higher impedance speakers and higher power as the reflected impedance fell into a range that extracted maximum power from the tube (probably somewhere around 3K).  I looked around and Steve's own words confirmed this:

"Our custom hand wound air-gapped grain oriented silicon steel output transformers have a primary impedance of 9800 ohms and the EL84 / SV83 output tubes would rather see 1/2 to 1/3 of that. This combined with a single 6 ohm tap gives ideal clipping characteristics. on the average speaker load. Lets face it, 8 ohm speakers are often closer to 6 ohm and with a six ohm tap the Zen can drive either 8 or 4 ohm speakers. The clipping characteristics. of this design are so graceful that you can't hear when the amp is soft clipping. It takes a hard flat line clip before you can actually hear it."

He goes on to say:

"In the tests above, using the same output tube, the Zen Triode amp performed with higher RMS output into low impedance loads. For example, a 16 ohm load yielded just under or at 1 watt RMS before measurable (not audible) distortion. (The waveform shown in the picture) An 8 ohm load yielded around 1.5 to 1.9 watts RMS. A 4 ohm load gave us around 2.38 watts RMS and a 2 ohm load gave us around 3.21 watts RMS."

Generally speaking, higher-impedance speakers will yield lower power and lower distortion in this application.  The textbook operating point is using speakers at 6 ohms, with higher power output at lower impedances, albeit with higher (second order) distortion.

All things being equal, a higher impedance speaker and output transformer is easier/better for sound.  In a single-ended amplifier, you are pushing it to get the output impedance down to 1 ohm with 8 ohm speakers.  16 ohm speakers make it easier to get better bass response and require less current from the output transformer.

EDIT:  I will add that it would appear that the higher sensitivities of the two-driver Omega's are in part due to the using a stated voltage of 2.83 volts, equivalent to 1 watt into 8ohms.  Halving the speaker impedance doubles the voltage sensitivity of the speaker but does not actually increase its acoustical efficiency.  You're still only getting another 3dB per watt, not 6dB.  If you're able to swing the additional voltage on the lower tap of your tube amp (if it has one), you will actually get more power, but it may be at the expense of reduced bass performance or greater distortion.

In the case of a HO Omega connected to a Decware Super Zen, you may have an ideal amp-speaker system:  putting drivers in parallel gives you an additional 3dB of acoustical efficiency, reducing the power demands on the amplifier in most scenarios.  Additionally, the lower impedance puts the amplifier into its sweet spot of maximum power output.  This comes at the expense of higher distortion at full power (which is largely academic, as the second-order distortion products are generally benign) however with the increased efficiency you will be operating at lower output power most of the time, and this higher distortion will be even less common.  In this scenario it would appear we can have our cake and eat it too.

[RDavidson]

It depends on the tube amp.  The pre-UFO Zens love low impedance as the lower the impedance goes, the more power it puts out.  The UFO Zens and the Kitoki both have 4 and 8 ohm taps on their OPTs so 4 ohms shouldn't present any problems.  My guess is the other Decware amps with UFO OPTs should also work well with 4 ohms.  I can't speak for other tube amps though as what you say may be the case in some instances.

That's true. I was making a blanket statement assuming all things being equal....though that's rarely the case especially when we're talking niche "boutique" amps.

[mrvco]

I finally received the Super Alnico High Output speakers and so am still getting used to them. I am powering them with my 10 watt SIT2 and I would say that dynamics are excellent so I would consider that a sign that they work fine with the 4-6 ohm specified impedance. I agree that the higher efficiency helps offset an increased need for current.

I want to play more with room placement and using the port blocking "nerf" balls before starting to draw more conclusions but they definitely sound different than the Super 6 Alnicos. They have a more full and rich sound and as advertised have a larger sound stage and handle large complex orchestral pieces much better. In terms of detail, clarity and instrument localization they are very similar to the Super 6's.

To be honest the Super 6's hold up very well in comparison but I will enjoy trying a low power DHT tube amp and also the ability to play complex music at "scare the cat" levels

Thanks for that... I saw that you had a J2 before the SIT-2.  How did you find the J2 over time?  I don't have the budget for the SIT-2, but have managed to talk myself into either a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium Integrated (Easy!) or going back to separates with a First Watt J2 + pre-amp (Flexible!).

[doggie]

Thanks for that... I saw that you had a J2 before the SIT-2.  How did you find the J2 over time?  I don't have the budget for the SIT-2, but have managed to talk myself into either a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium Integrated (Easy!) or going back to separates with a First Watt J2 + pre-amp (Flexible!).

I love the SIT2. I was inspired to replace my J2 after numerous positive reviews of the SIT2 especially the glowing one on Six Moons. To be honest the J2 was really good and I could have lived happily with it but the audiophile itch made me buy the SIT2 which is indeed better. I am however using a DHT tube preamp to add a bit of tonality that I prefer. One nice thing about the J2 is that it has about twice the power of the SIT2 and so will give you a wider range of speaker choices. It worked well with my Super 6 Anicos as does the SIT2.

Having said all of this I would still also like to try another good DHT tube amp with the new Omegas

[G Georgopoulos]

It depends on the tube amp.  The pre-UFO Zens love low impedance as the lower the impedance goes, the more power it puts out.  The UFO Zens and the Kitoki both have 4 and 8 ohm taps on their OPTs so 4 ohms shouldn't present any problems.  My guess is the other Decware amps with UFO OPTs should also work well with 4 ohms.  I can't speak for other tube amps though as what you say may be the case in some instances.

I don't see a tube amp as sub amp (although tube transformers do their best for bass),but on this i have to agree with Mr Rdavinson (ss always kicks bass ass)

[mrvco]

I love the SIT2. I was inspired to replace my J2 after numerous positive reviews of the SIT2 especially the glowing one on Six Moons. To be honest the J2 was really good and I could have lived happily with it but the audiophile itch made me buy the SIT2 which is indeed better. I am however using a DHT tube preamp to add a bit of tonality that I prefer. One nice thing about the J2 is that it has about twice the power of the SIT2 and so will give you a wider range of speaker choices. It worked well with my Super 6 Anicos as does the SIT2.

Having said all of this I would still also like to try another good DHT tube amp with the new Omegas

The J2 is enticing and I can use it with the preamp output on my current integrated (tube pre) until I find a preamp.  I do still want to own a tube amp at some point, but I'm unsure whether now is the time and the 62# Primaluna is it.

[jorgen]

Well I wouldn't go for the Primaluna if I was in your shoes. Basically because you have so many US brands that outperform this amp. Also because, at least here in Norway you can buy the amp in every other store walking down any main street and think this will affect possibilities for a resale later.

[mrvco]

Well I wouldn't go for the Primaluna if I was in your shoes. Basically because you have so many US brands that outperform this amp. Also because, at least here in Norway you can buy the amp in every other store walking down any main street and think this will affect possibilities for a resale later.

Primaluna doesn't seem to be nearly so prevalent here.  The only local dealer is an ultra-high-end appointment only outfit, so unless I'm spending $100k+ on a 'system', there really isn't any connection there.  After some further thought, like Louis and Omega Speakers, ordering a tube amp from Steve at Decware or another small shop is inevitably going to be a far more satisfying experience.

edit: J2 Ordered from Mark at Reno HiFi.

[roscoe65]

Primaluna doesn't seem to be nearly so prevalent here.  The only local dealer is an ultra-high-end appointment only outfit, so unless I'm spending $100k+ on a 'system', there really isn't any connection there.  After some further thought, like Louis and Omega Speakers, ordering a tube amp from Steve at Decware or another small shop is inevitably going to be a far more satisfying experience.

edit: J2 Ordered from Mark at Reno HiFi.

I will recommend Inspire amps by Dennis Had.  An amp/preamp combo would run you $3,000-4,000.

[RDavidson]

Primaluna doesn't seem to be nearly so prevalent here.  The only local dealer is an ultra-high-end appointment only outfit, so unless I'm spending $100k+ on a 'system', there really isn't any connection there.  After some further thought, like Louis and Omega Speakers, ordering a tube amp from Steve at Decware or another small shop is inevitably going to be a far more satisfying experience.

edit: J2 Ordered from Mark at Reno HiFi.

J2 is a GREAT amp. I'm still fond of it, though I no longer have one. I think you'll like it. It has a beautiful midrange. Bass is tight and useful. The highs are fast, extended, and very very clean. I found it to do almost everything a good small tube amp can do, except that last tiny drop of naturalness that only tube amps possess. The trade off is that you get a large heaping dose of extension and control that small tube amps just can't match. When you're at this high level of gear where the lines between excellent tubes and excellent SS blur, it boils down to the subtleties and how important those subtleties are to you. I currently have an F7. I've owned the XA30.5, XA30.8, M2, J2, F5, and now the F7. The big Pass amps are great, but with speakers as pure and simple as Omegas, I kept going back to the First Watt amps for their purity and quietness. I like the F7 a lot. It is very balanced all around and reminds me of the bigger Pass amps. It has a fuller (bigger) sound than the J2, but is just as resolving. It has been fun experiencing all these Nelson Pass creations in my home. You can't go wrong.

[mrvco]

I will recommend Inspire amps by Dennis Had.  An amp/preamp combo would run you $3,000-4,000.

Thanks, his tube amps are definitely on my short-list.

[mrvco]

J2 is a GREAT amp. I'm still fond of it, though I no longer have one. I think you'll like it. It has a beautiful midrange. Bass is tight and useful. The highs are fast, extended, and very very clean. I found it to do almost everything a good small tube amp can do, except that last tiny drop of naturalness that only tube amps possess. The trade off is that you get a large heaping dose of extension and control that small tube amps just can't match. When you're at this high level of gear where the lines between excellent tubes and excellent SS blur, it boils down to the subtleties and how important those subtleties are to you. I currently have an F7. I've owned the XA30.5, XA30.8, M2, J2, F5, and now the F7. The big Pass amps are great, but with speakers as pure and simple as Omegas, I kept going back to the First Watt amps for their purity and quietness. I like the F7 a lot. It is very balanced all around and reminds me of the bigger Pass amps. It has a fuller (bigger) sound than the J2, but is just as resolving. It has been fun experiencing all these Nelson Pass creations in my home. You can't go wrong.

Great to hear, the J2 should be a big step up for me.  What pre-amp are you using with your F7?