[gillesdierickx]

Hello everyone,

I am posting this out of "concern" for my father. He is a dear music lover and wants to get a new audio system.
We checked out a local dealer and he gave us some advice: a couple different speakers from KEF, Dali and also the monitor audio PL 500. The reason why I came here is because both my father and I are not yet experienced AT ALL in the audio world. Yes, his budget is not small, but I don't want him to overpay for something when he could get something else that's just as good for less money.
The PL500 was AMAZING no doubt. But it was also pretty expensive. Our living room is about 40' by 24'. I looked a bit online and found the magnepan 20.1 and 20.7 are pretty well reviewed as well but I'm not really sure what else would be a good option.
What would be a great option/installation for an avid music lover?(for preferably less money than the PL500) <15K would be perfect.

Thank you so much I appreciate any input I can get!

EDIT: Design does play a role I should say. Can be very minimal and look like any regular speaker, just no crazy futuristic designs I guess. Thanks again.

EDIT2: I apologize for not editing this earlier, but we are located in Europe(Belgium) not sure if this changes anything in terms of certain items not being available in Europe/not shipped here.

[ArthurDent]

Greetings & Welcome to AC gillesdierickx     Big room  , big question. I'm sure you'll get some good input. There are any number of fine manufacturers with circles here, so do some browsing. Solid State, Tube, Hybrid, Digital - amps/preamps, Dacs. Lots to consider. Lots of great speaker builders as well. Probably some room treatments involved in a space that size as well. Ceiling height ? What type of music is listened to, and what volume ? How much 2 channel use vs HT use ? The more information you can provide the more folks can relate their experience with similar situations.

Good Luck & have fun with the hunt. 

[brooklyn]

[Folsom]

Welcome, I'd be happy to give some suggestions if a budget and media source type were named.

Klipsch is not that good. Sometimes dealers have excellent stuff. But it's impossible to beat a few direct sale manufactures for speakers in the sub $10k budget for speakers. Two come to mind immediately, whom are on the forum.

[gillesdierickx]

Hi guys, thanks for the input so far and warm welcome!
Our ceiling is about 8'6" high. Budget CAN go up to 20K but preferably around 15. And I mean for the whole set up not JUST the speaker(s), is that do-able?

How much 2 channel use vs HT use ? - I feel a little embarrassed to say this but I'm not even quite sure what this means, nor does my father I know that for sure.

Type of music listened to? Old school rock etc. Talking heads, Van Morrison, U2, Fleetwood Mac, The Cure, also some modern stuff(hip hop, myself, but that's not as relevant it's for my father mainly.)

He is trying to make a purchase that will possibly last him for the rest of his life. He is 55 now.

@Folsom: Media source type would probably be radio, CD's or streamed from an iPhone or connected via AUX cable or something like that.

Just to be clear, my father/I have close to no experience in the audio world. He really just wants a great installation that will last a long time and isn't afraid to put some money down I guess.

[mresseguie]

Hello, and welcome to our corner of the internet.

With a budget of $15 total, you can get amazing sound. Spend some time perusing the speaker manufacturers here. There are several of them. You or your father need to decide what sort of sound you want.

Here's a model to think about (can be adjusted easily):

Speakers: $7,000 to $8,000
Amp:        $2500 to $3000
Preamp:    $1500 to $2500
DAC:         $1500

My point in typing the above helps you decide how much to budget for each component. You could buy an integrated amp for $3500 or $4000 and spend more on speakers. Generally speaking, you'll get greater enjoyment by spending more than half the money on the speakers. [This is just a suggestion to get the creative juices flowing.] I paid $800 for my DAC, and I'm happy as a clam, but I just bought a tube preamp for $2900.

Take your time before rushing into a purchase. Listen, ask questions, and compare often.

Good luck,

Michael

[Folsom]

Preamps are redundant with most DAC's that have superior volume control. I've got a couple ideas. Will post soon.

[Folsom]

First option for a stereo.

Speakers, Salk Silk Towers: These are based on "worlds best bookshelf" speaker. They have a smoothness that will greatly compliment the electronics I'm about to recommend that have superb dynamics but a tiny smoothness will do wonders. These speakers are full capable of very good dynamics. $4500 (available in lots of awesome veneers too)

CD player, The Oppo 103, can't go wrong for just a transport. $500

DAC & Amplifier, Audio Alchemy. DDP-1 ($2k) w/ PS-5 ($600) and DPA-1 ($2k). This will provide remote control volume, a good clean DAC that will allow upgrades in future for sources/inputs, and a very powerful 200w per channel for rattle your rib-cage kick drums and such. The class A front end on these amps make them have an iron grip type of power. They're awesome for someone who loves rock and roll.

Power Distribution, Protection, and filtration, SurgeX by ZenWave. $950: This unit will not wear out like others do that have a different surge suppression system. And I personally have studied the inside and they will not interfere with different types of power supplies, and not hinder dynamics at all. These sockets alone that are in them make a big difference

Speaker Cables, ZenWave SMC 12ga (variable length) $750-1000

Interconnects from DAC to Amp, ZenWave DD $325 for RCA .5m. The warmth on these will add a little bit to the balance of the overall system.

Power Cable upgrades for DAC and Amp. Zenwave PL, 1x 14ga (DAC) $525 4ft, 1x 11ga (Amp) $700 4ft. These have good geometry, very high quality.

Digital cable between Oppo and DAC. BJC RCA to RCA $15-20. You don't need anything special here, just 75ohm.

Total = $13,120


This system will be easy to listen, and at the same time be able to utterly sparkle with dynamics. It'll knock your socks off. All of these things are sold by some of the best people in the business (I've met Jim Salk and Peter (AA designer) in person, great guys).

Later I can post some other ideas. But this would be a drool worthy system, I'm dead certain. There are places to upgrade the system a little here and there, but I came up with this solution for total synergy. My other iterations of system ideas I may post will also feature the same care for synergy. But honestly for what he's into this would be hell of an awesome setup.

A possible upgrade would be to add "The Swarm" for $3k. It does incredible things for the immersion factor, but really is highlighted in some stuff like classical.

[Folsom]

Magnapans require a "head in the vice" listening location. BTW.

Klipsch have no refinement really, they're just loud and huge.

Consider everything I've linked to just about is a non-dealer item. That means they're 3-8x less markup so the value is huge.

[gillesdierickx]

That is some AWESOME feedback so far. I really appreciate everyone's input.
Hope you're all having a great Sunday.

[sebrof]

Your local dealer most likely had good advice for you, and it sounds like he's got some good stuff. You might pay a little more there vs. buying online, but I doubt you'll get ripped off assuming it's a reputable business. I would recommend your local dealer and not buying something sight unseen that someone like me on the internet recommends. Most dealers will work with you and you can hear the stuff, and also see the stuff which is very important.
Many people on these forums buy from their local dealer.

15K - 20K Euros or Dollars, either way that's a lot of money. Your Dad can get a great system for that.

My first advice would be for him to find speakers he loves to listen to that will work well in his room, then find an amplifier that drives them well. Then decide if he wants to play CDs, records, computer audio, etc. and get the appropriate player(s). The breakdown of costs for the items posted above is reasonable just to give an idea.

[SteveFord]

I beg to differ.
20.1s or 20.7 do not require a "head in a vice" listening position due to the size of them.
I had some for a bit but they were just too large for my house.  They'd be perfect for something as large as 24x40.
If your dad can swing 20.7s and some power to drive them along with a really good preamp and source he'll be in heaven.

I've been seeing some later Bryston amps for sale here and Magnepan has been using them for demos for the past few years. 
20.7s, Bryston amp(s) and a tube preamp sounds like a really good start.

[JLM]

What format(s) is your dad's music collection in?  Records?  CD's?  Other?  How big is the collection?  (Because there is a whole world of internet streaming that can give access to millions of albums.)

Nowadays most audiophiles either use vinyl (records) or some sort of computer as the primary source.  Not being young or audio knowledgable I'd shy away from computers (for as long as you can and until they come up with something of good quality that is truly simple to setup and use).  Vinyl requires quite a commitment in terms of fussiness, and effort of use. 

The entry point to hi-end audio is the ability for speakers to produce a 3-dimensional recreation of the performance.  You and your dad must shop in person to understand how each speaker (the biggest variable in how a systems sounds).  Bring your own music that represents the range of your tastes.  Take notes (forces you to really listen) and limit yourselves to only a few setups per day (to avoid mental fatigue).  And before making a final decision have the chosen system setup at your dad's place. 

Chose speakers first as they must "fit the room" and your tastes.  Speaker choice will then direct with amplifier(s) might work best.  Then complete with the source(s).  Keep in mind that in the past 40 or so years speaker voicing has changed to reflect smaller rooms, less boomy classic rock sounds, and trends towards more electronic/artificial music.  So in general the sound has moved from full bodied to sprightly and I'd guess away from what your dad would prefer.

Without auditioning, you'll just buy someone else's idea of good sound reproduction.  Recommend using the internet to research for equipment reviews, finding someone whose values seems to match your own.  Keep in mind that shipping/service from U.S. companies (who typically have few European outlets) is difficult and expensive.  Unfortunately Audio Circle is largely U.S. based and so most of us don't know much of European speakers. 

And note that there is a bewildering range of options when starting out fresh, especially with a healthy budget like yours.  So take your time to learn what is available and what fits your situation the best.  For a large room I'd suggest looking at more efficient speakers that can "fill the space" (have abundant bass output).  Have you considered using subwoofer(s) (which can be turned up or down and moved around the room to sound best) with somewhat smaller speakers? 

[Phil A]

Welcome to AC!  As noted above there are companies that sell direct to consumers (e.g. Salk) and give one a better value for the money vs. a traditional dealer network.  You have a very large room from the description.  I'd ask what type of music would typically be played and how loud will it be played.  Depending on the answer, it could help narrow down recommendations.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

For that type of music which can sound bright I would look at Sonus Faber Venere S, PSB Imagine T3's and maybe pair it with Conrad Johnson gear which all lean a little to the warmer side.  Pass Labs also makes great amps and preamps. Also consider Harbeth speakers. They look old school and sound great.  In Europe, you may have access to Vincent Audio gear.  They sell higher end gear that is not available here in the U.S.  It may be worth a look.  I would spend at least $4K to $5K on an amp and a about the same on a good preamp to get the air and transparency along with dynamics.

By the way, I am a Magnepan guy and think the 20.7's would be great.

One last option, I don't know if Vinni Rossi ships to Europe but consider one of his tube preamps with a built in DAC and pair it with  his power amp depending upon which speaker you go with.  You would want more power if you went with the 20.7's, something in the 400-500wpc range.

http://www.vinnierossi.com/#

[sebrof]

Another thing to keep in mind is how will your Dad use the system. Will he be sitting in the perfect spot listening to music and not doing anything else, or does he just want to fill the room with music as he does other things?
The responses you will get on this forum (and other similar forums) will assume your Dad will be sitting in the sweet spot and listening. Not everyone does that.

I work from home, and I have had several pretty good systems in my home office. I never listened to them while working because it just didn't work. Then I got gifted a Bose Wave Radio and it just fills the room with music. I listen to it while I work all the time. If a good song comes on and I want to really listen, the Bose sounds awful, dull and muted and way too much bass. My phone sounds better. But while working...the Wave Radio is perfect.

Point being that different systems fill different needs.

[FullRangeMan]

A deep pocket friend of mine prefer two way Dali over KEF and MA.

[gillesdierickx]

To answer a couple of these questions:
1) he would not be simply sitting in the same spot for a long amount of time.
2) I took better measurements and the room goes from being about 21ft wide to 29-30ft wide, it is about 45ft long and 8ft high.
3) Music he listens to is a variety, I'd say rock from the 80s all the way throughout the 2000s is what he listens to frequently. He does like to crank it up pretty good sometimes.
4) Main source of media is CDs(40CDs?) and radio, IF it is easy to set up a computer with the system, I'm sure I can convince him to do something like that, as long as it stays fairly easy to control/learn. Someone recommended setting up a Tidal account maybe, if going the computer route?
5) Now that I know that AC is primarily U.S. based I hope I didn't waste anyone's time, I am sure that some dealers here can fulfill orders with American brands but obviously if some of you are able to make recommendations that for sure would be doable in Europe that would obviously be great.
6)Durability is definitely a must with the set up also, not sure how long most set ups last but it's supposed to be something to last him till the end of his days by figure of speech.

@Sebrof: I definitely see what you're saying but I think he's more interested to buy a solid set up rather than a portable radio, I do appreciate the input!

Thank you and keep it coming!

[gillesdierickx]

 Picture of the room. They would be placed at area "in the distance"

[gillesdierickx]

Other side of the room.