New Owner of some VR4's. Here for tips and tricks!

JettaGLi16v · « **on:** 20 Sep 2016, 08:48 pm »

Hello, all!

On Sunday, I bought a pair of Von Schweikert VR4's. They are in very good condition (aside from the odd nick in the wood, and a few snags in the socks), and came from a retired electrical engineer that refurbishes & fixes HiFi equipment as a side gig. He had these for over 15 years, and was very sad to see them go.

I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

1) Is there some sort of sub-model nomenclature I should be using? I believe these are the first generation, as the M/T cabinet is totally rectangular, not trapezoidal. Are these just VR4's?

2) I was replacing a set of Paradigm 9SEMK3's, as the mains in my 5.1 system. Currently I have an older Yamaha AVR, and my front stage is powered with a Rotel RB-976. With the paradigms, at 50% gain on the Rotel, the music would be very loud. Now, I have to set the gain to about 80%, and I'm getting less volume. Given that all other variables remain unchanged, this means the VR4's are just less efficient, no? I am running them bi-amped, so the bass cabinet and M/T cabinet are getting about 75 watts per . I am able to overcome this easily by turning my AVR up. I usually run at -20dB, but at -10, I am getting plenty of sound out of them.

3) Upon further investigation, it seems like my AVR has a 1.0V output on the RCA's, and the Rotel has an 'input sensitivity' of 1.5V. I am of the mindset that this is why I can't get enough juice out of the Rotel to make the VR4's really sing. To resolve this, my intention is to look for a proper pre-pro as a source unit. I'm currently looking at Anthem D2 units, as they have balanced XLR outs (My dual subs run balanced XLR to the amp), and the ability to EQ (using ARC) the L/R subs separately, which would be nice. You can also get them for $1k-1500, which is reasonable for me right now. I can give them more power, if I should. I also have a spare 4ch Adcom amp that I'm not using, so if I should dedicate it to the VR4's, I'll happily do it.

4) I have read that some people are using rubber isolation discs between the lower cabinet and the M/T cabinet. Recommended?

5) What about removing these socks? I usually like to look at the drivers, but this doesn't seem like an easy endeavor on these.

6) Is there a good center channel to run with these? I have not been able to find a properly matched one. For now, I'll keep my Paradigm CC-350, but if there's something I should be looking for, let me know.

Anything else I should know about these beasts? I have already read the Bi-Amping thread, and amp thread top to bottom. Wow. Such good info there!

Thanks!
-Brad

kernelbob · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Sep 2016, 10:05 pm »

Hi Brad,

You got yourself a great pair of speakers. Back in the 90's I was looking to move into speakers that were more accurate and that especially were capable of generating a realistic sound stage. I still remember when on a business trip to Michigan, I stopped in at an audio dealer's and heard the VR4's for the first time. They were absolutely striking.

Now, I'm a very slow shopper and I spent the next two years looking at speakers to find something that could equal the VR4's at a reasonable price point. Finally I decided to get the Von Schweikert speakers. However right at that time my local audio store hosted a meet and greet with Albert Von Schweikert who brought his new VR6 speakers to show. I bought a pair that evening and still have them in my second system with newer VSA speakers in my main system.

Those VR4's like a high current amplifier and will really sing if you do end up biamping them. I would suggest that you check out the VSA circle on Audiocircle and give VSA a call and get their recommendations to get the most out of the speakers. Feel free to drop me a PM on Audiocircle.

Best,
Robert

JettaGLi16v · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Sep 2016, 10:51 pm »

Hey, Robert!
Thanks for the reply, and solid endorsement of my new purchase!

Just to clarify, aren't we in the VSA circle on Audiocircle?

If not, can you point me in the right direction?

-Brad

kernelbob · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Sep 2016, 11:00 pm »

Yes, indeed we are. I'm browsing through the list of most recent Audiocircle posts and didn't notice. By the way, I sent you a private message on another topic.

JettaGLi16v · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Sep 2016, 11:19 pm »

Hooray! My first PM!

I'll reply momentarily!

-Brad

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 12:15 am »

Quote from: JettaGLi16v on 20 Sep 2016, 08:48 pm

Hello, all!

On Sunday, I bought a pair of Von Schweikert VR4's. They are in very good condition (aside from the odd nick in the wood, and a few snags in the socks), and came from a retired electrical engineer that refurbishes & fixes HiFi equipment as a side gig. He had these for over 15 years, and was very sad to see them go.

I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

1) Is there some sort of sub-model nomenclature I should be using? I believe these are the first generation, as the M/T cabinet is totally rectangular, not trapezoidal. Are these just VR4's?

2) I was replacing a set of Paradigm 9SEMK3's, as the mains in my 5.1 system. Currently I have an older Yamaha AVR, and my front stage is powered with a Rotel RB-976. With the paradigms, at 50% gain on the Rotel, the music would be very loud. Now, I have to set the gain to about 80%, and I'm getting less volume. Given that all other variables remain unchanged, this means the VR4's are just less efficient, no? I am running them bi-amped, so the bass cabinet and M/T cabinet are getting about 75 watts per . I am able to overcome this easily by turning my AVR up. I usually run at -20dB, but at -10, I am getting plenty of sound out of them.

3) Upon further investigation, it seems like my AVR has a 1.0V output on the RCA's, and the Rotel has an 'input sensitivity' of 1.5V. I am of the mindset that this is why I can't get enough juice out of the Rotel to make the VR4's really sing. To resolve this, my intention is to look for a proper pre-pro as a source unit. I'm currently looking at Anthem D2 units, as they have balanced XLR outs (My dual subs run balanced XLR to the amp), and the ability to EQ (using ARC) the L/R subs separately, which would be nice. You can also get them for $1k-1500, which is reasonable for me right now. I can give them more power, if I should. I also have a spare 4ch Adcom amp that I'm not using, so if I should dedicate it to the VR4's, I'll happily do it.

4) I have read that some people are using rubber isolation discs between the lower cabinet and the M/T cabinet. Recommended?

5) What about removing these socks? I usually like to look at the drivers, but this doesn't seem like an easy endeavor on these.

6) Is there a good center channel to run with these? I have not been able to find a properly matched one. For now, I'll keep my Paradigm CC-350, but if there's something I should be looking for, let me know.

Anything else I should know about these beasts? I have already read the Bi-Amping thread, and amp thread top to bottom. Wow. Such good info there!

Thanks!
-Brad

Hi Guy:

I have a pair of VR4 GenIII HSE speakers. Bought them brand new for about 6K. Always sounded good.
A few years ago I found that VR would upgrade them for 3K. I bit the bullet and had it done.
HUGE!! and I mean HUGE!!! improvement in the sound. Don't know if you would be interested in doing that
but I thought I'd tell you. Also they came back with new socks and other things. Completely refinished.

Cheers
Charlie

JettaGLi16v · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 01:39 pm »

Hey Charlie!

Yeeeaaaah,
I had read about the legendary VR4 upgrade path, so I called VSA yesterday.

As of now, they will sell replacement woofers at a reasonable rate, but you should do all 4 at once. They will ship them to you, but some bass cabinets may require a bit of clearancing with a router to accommodate the larger woofer baskets. No biggie, and something I will likely consider after I get them performing properly.

The only upgrade paths they offer for these at the moment start at $12k, and go up from there. I believe he said they use all of the drivers from the VR44? While I'm sure they are amazing, I can't really wrap my head around numbers like that. I am a budget audiophile for sure.

-Brad

roscoeiii · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 02:00 pm »

Yeah, I'd had the impression from other posts that the days of the more inexpensive upgrades were probably behind us.

WGH · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 03:06 pm »

Quote from: JettaGLi16v on 21 Sep 2016, 01:39 pm

The only upgrade paths they offer for these at the moment start at $12k, and go up from there. I believe he said they use all of the drivers from the VR44? While I'm sure they are amazing, I can't really wrap my head around numbers like that. I am a budget audiophile for sure.

You can do many of the upgrades yourself like I did.

The fastest, easiest and cheapest is damping the woofers with Plasticlay
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145623.msg1558172#msg1558172

Next is adding internal bracing. The VR-2's had minimal bracing and sounded hollow when tapped and added a lot of mid-bass chestiness.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=44748.0

Next is the VSA triple wall construction. Once the cabinet sides are damped bass is tighter, deeper, clearer and imaging improves (less micro-vibrations)
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72808.msg683847#msg683847

Wayne

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 03:08 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 21 Sep 2016, 02:00 pm

Yeah, I'd had the impression from other posts that the days of the more inexpensive upgrades were probably behind us.

Seems strange that cost of everything goes up and up and up and our income doesn't.
I mean not only audio gear but everything we buy. Thank the guy in the sky I can still
afford a BIG!!! bottle of VODKA!!!

Cheers
Charlie

JackD201 · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 03:17 pm »

I'm gonna need a case of Vodka if and when I do the 11 Mk2 to Ultra 11 Upgrade!

Escott1377 · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 04:11 pm »

I can speak to the bi amping a little bit. I have the jr's and typically VSA speakers like more juice than 100 W. That should be OK for the high / mids, but I would expect the woofers to want more power. I would probably at least double that to 200 W if possible.

I went thru a lot of trial and error for the sensitivity issue. Started w/ attenuators and ultimately "guessed" a value of about 7 dB and had them custom made.

I had my jr's upgraded and they came back as 4 Ohms across the cabinet so I no longer struggled with the matching.

I have a friend that owns jr's and has used this device successfully to match the levels...

http://ciaudio.com/products/VPC3

Good luck!

JettaGLi16v · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 04:51 pm »

WGH: Thanks for the links! I'll delve in a little deeper after work. For sure I know bracing is advantageous on any box moving decent volumes of air. The modelling clay is perplexing (as to the benefits), but I'll read through the paper, and see if they can enlighten me.

Charlie: Good thing you are a vodka man. Don't even get me started on the bourbon market in the last 2-4 years. It's absurd. Pricing is going off the rails for the good stuff, and that's IF (a big if) you can find anything.

Escott: Yeah, most of my reading has confirmed what you are saying. 150-250 WPC for the bass cabinets, and 20-100 *good* watts to the Mid / Tweet cabinet seems to be the sweet spot. I was hoping not to have that costly of a month for the theater alone. By the time I have the VR4's, a decent pre-pro, and a new amp, I'm at every bit of $3k-4...

JettaGLi16v · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 04:56 pm »

Escott:

Thanks for the link.
The owners manual you linked confirmed exactly what I was thinking...:

"The input sensitivity is the signal level required to drive the amplifier to rated power. For example, a CD player with 2 volts RMS output and an amplifier with 1 volt sensitivity would work fine. In a system using a 1volt output source and an amplifier with 2 volts sensitivity, you would not have enough signal to drive the amplifier to full power"

Given that my AVR output is 1V, and my Rotel has an input sensitivity of 1.5V, I can only drive the amp to 66% of it's rated power. Which means in reality, I am only sending 49.5 WPC to each cabinet... That ain't gonna cut it. I think the Pre-pro will be the first step, and then I'll plan on adding a tube amp for the top cabinet when funds are available. But, after the pre-pro, I'll be getting 50% more wattage, but that's not even 3dB, if my concepts are correct.

Mountainjoe · « **Reply #14 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 06:06 pm »

Regarding isolation between the MT cabinet and the woofer, I had good results on my VR4 gen2 speakers with Vibrapods - just make sure you get the right size rated for the weight of the MT cabinets.

I also tried Stillpoints and got better results but of course these cost much more than the Vibrapods.

What I noticed is better resolution and tighter imaging with the improved isolation.

Good luck - I had my VR4s for 18 years and loved that speaker!

Cheers, Joe

JettaGLi16v · « **Reply #15 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 07:55 pm »

Thanks, Joe!

I had also bumped into a few threads recommending them some type of rubber isolation between the cabinets.

I'll probably try a few of them in between the cabinets and see if I like it.

-Brad

JettaGLi16v · « **Reply #16 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 11:06 pm »

Dang it!!

I have a blown woofer.......

I'm beyond gutted.

After a bit of playing, and isolating, one of the woofers has a definite 'flapping' noise, which I assume is a torn surround (though it is a bit scratchy as well. Could be a toasted voice coil)...

I can get new drivers from VSA at $300, but Madisound offers an Audax driver that they say is compatible, and seems very similiar in spec to what I would get from VSA.

Anyone offer any advice for this? I'm totally torn between seeing if the guy I bought them from will take them back, or just biting the bullet.

Advice? Morale boost?

Thanks.......
-Brad

Mountainjoe · « **Reply #17 on:** 21 Sep 2016, 11:36 pm »

I would give the guys at VSA a call - they are very accommodating and will help you determine the best solution within your budget.

smk · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Sep 2016, 02:59 pm »

Don't own VSA speakers, not that I wouldn't like to, but that is another story. On top of my priority list with any new speaker would be location, location, location.

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 Sep 2016, 11:22 pm »

Quote from: JettaGLi16v on 21 Sep 2016, 11:06 pm

Dang it!!

I have a blown woofer.......

I'm beyond gutted.

After a bit of playing, and isolating, one of the woofers has a definite 'flapping' noise, which I assume is a torn surround (though it is a bit scratchy as well. Could be a toasted voice coil)...

I can get new drivers from VSA at $300, but Madisound offers an Audax driver that they say is compatible, and seems very similiar in spec to what I would get from VSA.

Anyone offer any advice for this? I'm totally torn between seeing if the guy I bought them from will take them back, or just biting the bullet.

Advice? Morale boost?

Thanks.......
-Brad

No problem replacing a woofer. $300 from VSA sounds about right.
Your biggest problem will be getting the socks off and back on without ripping them.
If they are the original socks you will have a problem. Socks are just about wore out.

Cheers
Charlie