The Little Wonders: JVC's RX-ES1sl & F10

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 13 Nov 2004, 01:53 am »

Well, I just got the F10 in from J & R and hooked it up to the power-sucking Maggies. It's now reminiscent of the sound I had with the ES1sl on the Vandys. Effortless, far more enjoyable than the Dynaco PAS-4 & AudioSource Amp3 I've listened to for the past 2 weeks since I had my thermal shutdown on the ES1sl driving the Maggies at '30'.

To me, this is what tubes should sound like wrapped with all the nicities of SS's drive. Really, JVC is cranking out winners

I like it right out of the box - just like I did the ES1sl originally. But now, rated at 100 watts at 6 ohms, it drives the Maggies willingly. I am tapping my toes right now.

So, there are differences between the two receivers...the RX-F10 does indeed seem to be an evolution to the next level. It has 6 channels of amplification, a bit better ergonomics, it seems to have better build quality (tho it now weighs 0.5 lb less). Those of you that have the F10, do indeed have something slightly better in your hands/in your racks.

Something neat I just noticed...the F10 uses copper screws throughout (at least on the outside, I haven't yet cracked it open). I know that in itself is an important upgrade and one that can't be undertaken by just modding the ES1sl. They really went all out on the F10 for a measly US$250 delivered

The music is now quite full and pleasing....it was thin, runny and quite unlistenable with the ES1sl. Now, I have not hooked the two up side by sde with more concentional speakers to see if the differences exist, but theoretically, these differences should exist on all speakers due to the better drive characteristics of the F10. More power is rarely worse to have.

Now, I have 2 weeks to burn this baby in before final and unequivocal decision...but the outta' the box impression is too strong to ignore. The F10 drives the Maggies, the ES1sl cannot and did not.

The video and FM tuner specs are identical, but I noticed that power consumption at operation is now about 25% higher. The techies out there may be able to read something greater into it than I, but it seems that THIS JVC Hybrid is less Class D and more Class AB in in it's operation to better drive difficult loads. This kinda' dovetails with folks that have found some of the new (mostly lesser expensive, I think) digital amps to be lacking in drive with lower impedances. It may be good old Class AB is more capable and cost effective way to drive a greater range of speaker loads right now...at least in conjunction with swithcing power supplies that the JVC undoubtedly has.

I am enjoying it already in hour one...I never enjoyed one second of the ES1sl paired with the Maggies. Yet again, they sounded well more expensive than it's $179 price tag on the 90 db/8 ohm Vandy's...but abysmal on the Maggies.

I have 299 hours of burn-in left....but am abundantly happy now with what a $250 receiver is doing for an excellent $550 speaker with notoriously difficult loads and sensitivity.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 02:07 am »

You know, the F10 really is rated for less power than the ES1SL. That's the funny part. Looking forward to more direct comparisons between the es1sl and f10 with more conventional speakers if you ever get the time

Zero · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 02:22 am »

Good to hear you are diggin the FX-10. Definately a decent product that far exceeds the performance of is price tag.

You should be pretty happy with it.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 02:28 am »

The F-10 DOES NOT uses a switching power supply. It is a conventional large transformer, full wave diode bridge and big filter caps. That would account for the increased power consumption.

tubeytubeamp · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 02:46 am »

Chairguy,

Great news on the F10. Please try them out with your Linaeum towers.

Dennis

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 02:52 am »

Quote from: Wayne1

The F-10 DOES NOT uses a switching power supply. It is a conventional large transformer, full wave diode bridge and big filter caps. That would account for the increased power consumption.

Ah, thanks for establishing that Wayne...it is a large increase in power handling over the ES1sl. Does anyone know if the ES1sl has a transformer or swithing power supply?

ooheadsoo, both have a rated output of 100 watts..yet the F10 can produce it at 6 ohm, something, it seems the ES1sl cannot do. Or, at least, cannot at all do at 4 ohms.

Zero · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 03:29 am »

Chair guy,

Just the other day, I hooked up some Totem speakers and cranked the unit up to level 40 - (typically I never take it past 24)... on Telarcs 1812 DSD release. I skipped to track 03 - Capriccio Italien, expecting compression and no dynamics. What I got was an experience that left me feeling like I heard the piece for the first time.

Out of the box, the F10 seems like a feather weight, through time, you can start to push her without straight. The maggies will definately give the F10 a work out, but I am confident that it will hold up well.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 03:37 am »

This is definitely OT and irrelevant, but when you lower the impedance, the output of the amp increases. Conversely, when you raise the impedance, the output drops. Therefore, while the es1sl can produce 100w at 8 ohm and the f10 only 100w at 6 ohm, if you raised the impedance of the f10 to 8 ohm, the power would drop below 100w. That's why I said that the f10 is actually rated lower in power.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 04:15 am »

ooheadsoo.....oooooooooooo

Whatever the math and science behind the impedance thingee....the F10 has bigger guyans (Italian for 'balls'). It drives what the ES1 cannot...the Maggies..and, I'd assume most other ribbons, and cone speakers (like Dynaudio) with 4 ohm loads.

Now I know what the hub-bub is all about with Maggies...it's a damn nice ride for $550 delivered, man.

If anyone is sitting on the fence and wondering which JVC to buy - spend the extra $100 for the F10. You get a lot more than just an extra channel of amplification for your $250....you're getting a swell upgrade, too.

Hey, perhaps I am already familiar with the signature of these amps, but I'm not sensing the remarkable break-in that the ES1sl underwent. Pehaps some of this break-in shit is, in fact, all in your head. We'll see in time...I think I might have thought the same thing with the ES1; and them it kept getting better.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 06:16 am »

From your posting so far CG, looks like there will be a lot of ES-1's up for sale as people move to the better performing F10. Just my thoughts....

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 07:01 am »

Yes, it's quite remarkable what you're saying about the maggies!

I'd still love to know how it compares with "normal" speakers, if there's any difference

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 08:51 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42

From your posting so far CG, looks like there will be a lot of ES-1's up for sale as people move to the better performing F10. Just my thoughts....

Yep, also makes me wonder if you'd had the F10, would your impression (and that of NY Audio Rave) of the little wonder have been more positive.

Not that you trashed it, but it was sort of a 'I don't know what all the hoopla is all about' attitude on it....quite different than many of us.

Do you know/remember the speakers you had paired it with...at your place and at the shootout? Aside from single drivers & horns, most of the rest should/could/ likely would hear a discernable difference. The F10 simply grabs hold of speakers better than the ES1sl.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 12:42 pm »

I, for one, would love to hear your thoughts on the newer JVC and your Vandys - the older JVC and the Vandersteens certainly seemed like a wonderful synergystic blend!

I also wonder if the newer JVC is any less a digital amp? Sounds funny I know, since the heart is still digital in some way, but with the hybrid nature of the beast, and now a step away again from the traditional, with a standard power supply - is this still a member of the breed, or is it a newer (and perhaps better, don't misunderstand me!) creature altogether?

For the record, I stand by the Teac's ability to drive tough loads such as 4 ohm Totem speakers. I will test the ES-1 with my Totems when it arrives, but a good friend of mine is already pining for that receiver, to solve an issue in his home, so I might be lining up for the F10 soon enough...

Zero · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 02:50 pm »

MCG,

What Totems is your friend using?

To these ears (my opinion, blah blah), the F-10 is flat out horrible when driving main speakers by themselves. If the speakers are set to large - than the bass is incredibly sloppy and the mids are almost completely compromised. Put it on small, and everything sounds "thin". I have yet to find a decent middle ground when trying to run just two speakers by themselves without a sub.

On the other hand, throw a sub into the mix and set the speakers on small and things are ok. Anyone else feel the same or am I just alone in this camp ?

mcgsxr · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 04:14 pm »

Mr Zero, just to clarify, I am the Totem user - Rokk is the model, it is a 4ohm load, and they are around 11 years old now - similar to the Rainmaker that is currently in the lineup.

I have extensive experience with these speakers and the Totem's - good mix.

I have yet to receive my ES-1, JLM had borrowed it, and it is on the way to me now.

My friend uses some Mirage Omnipolar bookshelf speakers, that he hopes will mate well with the ES-1. IF he likes it, he will buy it, and I might turn around and hunt for an F-10 that can be sent to Canada - I have several 4ohm speakers that I want to use for HT, so I am NOW finding out that the ES-1 might not do the trick...

I also have a set of CSS full range drivers that I am playing with right now (8 ohms) that could prove fun also.

Zero · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 06:16 pm »

MCG,

Awesome. You wouldn't happen to have any pictures of your Rokks hanging around would ya?

I currently run a pair of the latest Sttaf's, and a pair of Tabu's I snagged off of Bill at Response Audio. I love Totem products. Neither model I have heard sounds like one another. I find this to be a pleasant departure to most manufactorers I run across.

I am hesitant to recommend running a whole surround set-up of 4 ohm speakers on the little JVC. Granted, I have no experience with this particular piece for theater. I would just make sure that the speakers you choose remain stable at 4 ohms and dont dip much lower, as so many speakers do.

My parents are using a Sony AVD-S50 ES receiver (sports chip amps as well) on an all Polk Audio LSi (4 ohm ) system without many difficulties. However, it has gone into protection mode a few times, and sometimes not at loud volumes at all.

Either way, you will probably be pressing the very limits of those amps. Of course, I could very well be wrong. Hopefully someone running a simular theater set up using this unit will chime in.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 08:48 pm »

This is one quick shot, and shows the Rokk sitting on their Atlantis Reference stands. A simple metal dome tweeter, and 5.25 inch paper woofer two way, in mahogany here. I really like the Totem lineup, and get a twinge whenever I see the Model 1 Signatures in mahogany, I LOVE those...

As for the all 4ohm HT, you are probably right, I COULD rewire a few things, and get some of the channels at 8 ohms, but hopefully the JVC will endure - actually, I will likely await someone else, who has one, playing around with it, to let me know.

Actually - how about it TheChairGuy - can you find a way to setup an HT in 4ohms for us? Have 5 car speakers around...

Zero · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Nov 2004, 10:38 pm »

Mcg,

Awesome lookin' system you have there, right down to the rocks! Those are some very hefty stands you have there, how much did they cost ya?

I would move the JVC downstairs and hook up the Polk system, but I fear my parents taking my life if I touch their system one more time... !

Hopefully the Chairguy will be able to come through for ya! Here is a quick shot of my Totem...

http://members.cox.net/a6m5zero/Manual/El%20AUDIO/Totemwater.jpg

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Nov 2004, 03:35 am »

Guys,

Maybe there is something more extraordinary about driving Maggies vs. other 4 ohm dynamic cone speakers that I'm not aware of.....but if they all react similarly, with the only variables being impedance and sensitivity, I think you may not be very happy with the ES1sl on the Totem's. Sorry

My system in in my office, my office in my home and, subtracting work and vacation days away, I'm listening to my system 300 days a year for 10-12 hours per day. Everything is so well ingrained in my psyche by now, I can tell a very slight change (generally) immediately...on or off axis.

From 50 feet away today, in my kitchen, I could hear what sounded like music coming out of my room with the Maggies. It struck me this was the same (happy) general feeling I got with the ES1sl and the (8ohm/90 db sensitive) Vandy 1c's back in July. The F10 was hooked up, second day only, and it sounded like music again in my room. My memory of the ES1 and the Maggies was thin, bass bloat, lack of volume and clarity and horrible treble performance...and that a fully burned in unit. Thermal shutdown occurred at '30'.

I sure hope I'm wrong, but I don't think you'll have the same happy impression as many of us with the ES1 and Totem in tandem. I hope your buddy with the Mirage's will dig it and you can buy the F10 (assuming your main speaks are the Totems). It is an upgrade to the ES1 in several significant ways...IF you have power hungry speakers.

Again, I hope I'm dead wrong, and the Maggies present something more of a torture test than your Totems will

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Nov 2004, 03:41 am »

Quote from: TheChairGuy

Yep, also makes me wonder if you'd had the F10, would your impression (and that of NY Audio Rave) of the little wonder have been more positive.

Not that you trashed it, but it was sort of a 'I don't know what all the hoopla is all about' attitude on it....quite different than many of us.

Do you know/remember the speakers you had paired it with...at your place and at the shootout? Aside from single drivers & horns, most of the rest should/could/ likely would hear a discernable difference. The F10 simply grabs hold of speakers better than the ES1sl.

Hello CG,

Chris[/list:u]