[EdRo]

     I had the chance to talk with Ryan about this a bit during my Nimbus delivery/visit to St. Louis last weekend. I build the Aurora and Nimbus cabs in the Vapor lineup. In the past, I've built the raw cabs for an order, then they are delivered to Ryan to finish. The more that I can do to relieve some of the burden from Ryan, the better. So, if anyone from Audio Circle is interested in purchasing either Nimbus or Aurora speakers, contact me through a p.m.
     My "different approach" is to have a set of each cab variety ready for order to expedite the entire process. No down payment will be taken until the raw cabs are completed. When a customer picks out the different specific driver and x-o options for his or her speakers, then a deposit will be taken. Wait time will be reduced substantially. The baffle builds are dependent on driver selection and paint shops can get backed up, but this method will reduce wait time from months to weeks. If multiple orders are placed, then a waiting list will go up on the Vapor website for viewing. Again, no deposits for Nimbus or Aurora builds will be taken until the raw cabs are done.
     If anyone has any input feel free to voice suggestions. Audio Circle is an open forum, and one that I'm proud to be a part of. I've learned much from everyones collective wisdom and insight here, and I have much more to learn. I also feel that this is more than just a Wikipedia of audio knowledge. People interact here. I've read and felt concern for our brothers and sisters on this site. The past tragic events for Ryan and his family have highlighted the fact that I need to do more, so I have to do what I can to make this work. I'd like to personally thank everyone out there for the support and understanding thats been given to Ryan and his family during this time.

[toddc2]

Nice idea Ed! I like the idea of adding some transparency to the production queue.

Todd

[Folsom]

Ed, this is a great example of a positive step forward I always hope to see from Vapor. Your speakers are just awesome, and Ryan's work is fantastic. It's just that the business side needs this type of refinement to move forward so you can get big in the speaker world. Confidence goes such a very long ways!

It would be great if the speakers could get all the way to the paint-ready stage, but that would require the front baffle going on and having another baffle that was swappable that mounted in it, for W/B.

[Phil A]

The Federal Trade Commission has guidelines for people who sell via the internet - https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/business-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order

"The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise."

Therefore, you if gave a customer an estimate and it is not met and you don't have any consent from the customer for extension, you are in violation of the law.  You simply can't continue to hold customer deposits.  If there is no time limit stated, then the 30 day rule applies.

[Folsom]

Phil, that's a great bit to know.

[fex02]

Phil, great insight.
Ed, thanks for stepping up.Ryan has allot on his plate.This will/may provide some relief from the day to day pressures.
I hope all of us continue to Pray for Ryan and his family.

[Phil A]

I probably said substantially the same thing, without as much detail, when some of the long threads which were going on with back and forth allegations that don't mean a thing for those not involved in the process.  I don't know how anyone else feels but this as far as I know is an audio site and there is supposed to be no dirty laundry.  I've said it before that there are Government agencies and organizations such as the Better Business Bureau. I certainly don't want to read about someone's business practices.  File and complaint where it belongs.

When I feel like I've not been treated fairly (and I consider myself reasonable), then I take a complaint where it belongs. I've posted about certain examples I've been involved with.  Today, I will be drafting complaints to the Federal Trade Commission and Better Business Bureau offices regarding a well known cable company that threw a delinquency on my credit report (with the assistance of a known credit collector whom I would term as not having the best reputation) without a single notice to me for an entirely different individual (different spelling of my last name and first name and at an address I've never maintained).  What's even more bizarre is that for the same time period I was a customer of theirs at a different address in a different state.  When I moved, they failed to shut off my service (every one else did, water, electric gas, telephone, alarm, etc.) and I had to get on an online chat session and get them to do it again.  I ended up paying an extra $100 or so dollars as after my move to my current location I just had too many things to do to fight with total incompetence and waste more time.  I cut and pasted the chat session (which included my account number) and sent myself an email.  My understanding is that the information has or will be soon removed (was not on for a long period) but they had my address and even ran my credit report again a bit under a year ago and it does have an address to contact me.  I'm sure they already know that I'm not happy and it is not the last they have heard from me.

[Chu Gai]

The Federal Trade Commission has guidelines for people who sell via the internet - https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/business-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order

"The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise."

Therefore, you if gave a customer an estimate and it is not met and you don't have any consent from the customer for extension, you are in violation of the law.  You simply can't continue to hold customer deposits.  If there is no time limit stated, then the 30 day rule applies.

As you correctly state, the Federal government does have guidelines in place but unless you're a large outfit that's in violation, it's highly unlikely the Feds will pursue any legal action. Cost effectiveness and all that. However each state has their own consumer protection system  along with investigators and a legal system for enforcement which come election season makes for good copy.

In MO. they have the Missouri Manufacturing Practices Act which you can read more about here: http://www.mobar.org/course-materials/sasf2014/pages/substantive-collections/MMPA%20Article%20-%20Noland%202014.pdf

Among other things, it allows successful plaintiffs to recoup their legal costs.

A lot of small outfits routinely skirt federal regulations because they see themselves as small fish. For example, virtually no ID DAC vendor or ID amp vendor that uses switching power supplies has their units tested according to FCC 15 Part B for unintended EMI/RFI.

I note that Vapor Audio finally registered their company on 8/5/2015 as required by the state of Missouri. Prior to that I could find no reference in a business search of the MO. Secretary of State's online database.

[EdRo]

Hey Chu, you seem very interested in the Vapor site, so ill point out that I have a set of Nimbus cabs that are looking for an owner. I have a set of completed silver colored Nimbus whites that have been to a few shows and reviews and have the bumps to prove it. But they are going for a very reasonable price. I have another set of raw cabs that could be whatever you want; White, Black or Perfects. I don't have a set of Aurora cabs ready for sale at the moment. I'm also working on a prototype cab, but I have more work to do before that will be ready for review. Let me know if you're interested in anything that I might have on hand.

[EdRo]

I've read Chu's interactions with others in past threads, including Ryan. I can't help what's been done or said between Ryan and Chu, or Ryan and other customers for that matter. What I can do is offer my cabinets  and services and try to change perceptions and continue to improve the process. That's how businesses either succeed or fail. It's up to me to change Chus' perception from  a negative to a positive. Period.

[pdj]

Well said Ed.  I admire your positivity.