[tomek]

Hi there,

I remember reading about the various digital Panasonic amps and someone had once mentioned that the XR-10 was their favourite, citing better parts.  I've looked it up and it seems like this one is lighter than the rest and has higher distortion figures.

Anyone done a good comparison between them?

I ask because I picked up a 15 and have compared it to my 50 and have found them much more similar than different.  I'd be happy with either one to be honest.

[Neild]

Interesting, I can hear in an instant the difference between xr25/xr45 and the xr50.  The 50 seems more splashy and sweetened for and in a way more lush.  But the 25 & 45 sound extremely neutral.  Describing in words is hard but in my mind I imagine the 25 & 45 as reference neutral (to my ears) and the 50 adds two offsetting sound variations: one is some brightness & tone that I would normally object to, but the other is a element of warmth that I do dig.  Personally I give the old series the edge for sound but the new series for appearance and controls.

[Dmason]

Tom,

A few people have written in the past that in their opinion, the 10 sounded quite abit better than the 25/45.

[TIC]

Tomek and All,

I have owned the XR45 and the XR10. Unfortunately, I never actually played the XR10 as I realized that I was not going to be able to use it with my in wall speaker cables that are terminated with Nordost Z-plugs (an expensive and time consuming proposition to install).

I have also read in a few places on the web that some folks prefer the sound of the XR10. I can tell you this; the XR10 is a lot better looking and would look great in almost any environment. It is also a perfect cosmetic match for the DVD-XP30 (which is why I bought the XR10/XP30 combo in the first place).

Anyway, when I realized that I was not going to be able to use the XR10 in my HT setup, I sold it in "new" condition on AudiogoN and got $140 for it. If you have a desire to buy an XR10, I do have a source and can get you one for $140. Sorry, but I can't give up the source as I made a promise to the person that turned me on to the deal.

Please disregard this if you feel it is an unsolicited sales pitch. It's not as I wouldn't make any money on the deal. But I could get another DVD-XP30 for a decent price in a combo deal with the XR10.

Enjoy,

TIC

[tschanrm]

Hey TIC,

I'm pretty sure bought that xr-10 off of you if you sold it "new" just a month or two ago.  I've posted a comparison of all the Panasonic digital amps internals in another forum, I can repost it here if anyone is interested.

[MonkeyK]

I'm interested.

[TIC]

tschanrm,

Post the review or a link to it on the other site. I sold mine to a guy named Ryan who used the moniker sillkk39. Is that you?

Thanks,


TIC

[TIC]

MonkeyK,

PM me if you are interested.

TIC

[MonkeyK]

Sorry Tic, I meant to say that I am interested in seeing the comparison tschanrm wrote up.  I'm still trying to determine which receiver best meets my needs.

[tschanrm]

TIC,

Yup, thats me, sillkk39 is my aol/ebay account, I use this one for all my college stuff.  Anyway, somebody over at DIY audio asked about the differences between panasonics xr line and after a little research I came up with this.   Its mostly just about internal stuff between the series, and for fairness I've only compared my xr10 to a tweaked vintage amp and some cheap fisher amp.  Read up on stuff from Wayne from bolder cables, he has probably seen all these panasonic amps internals first hand.

I tried a different p/s cord, home built quad cat5 with iec adapter, no measurable difference from testing using RMAA and my emu 0404 sound card.  

However, one thing that made a noticable difference, in fact a measureable difference using RMAA with my emu 0404 sound card for tesing, it was a computer surge protector/noise filter from radioshack that was originally $35, but they are clearancing out for $5!  Plugging the xr10 to this made noise level go up from 84db to 88db and dynamic range 85 to 89db for digital in.  This was repeatable, unplug, ~84, plug in radioshack special, ~88-89.

Power supply
Differences between the xr10 and the 45 on the powersupply side are slim, I think the xr10 lacks one small transformer near the power cord that the 45 has. Also, xr10 uses two smaller main transformers, while xr45 uses only 1 bigger one. Xr70 is similar to the 45, but main transformer and smaller one right next to it is bigger and there are protection relays (which apparently degrade sound) for the speakers are on the p/s board as well according to wayne from Boulder cables on audiocircle. xr25 and 50 power supplies lack the extra filtering that the 10/45/70 have, and the 50 still has the protection relays for the speakers.  The whole line uses the figure eight cord found on dvd players, xbox, ps2, etc.  Lastly, xr10 uses a ferrite on the stock cord, all other models do not have this ferrite.

Amp section:
45 and 25 use identical amp sections. XR10 uses the original TI equibit amp design, which used to be a $500 piece in itself if ordered through TI. The TI board is different from the 45/25 and 50/70. The xr10 has TAS5012 chips, xr 25 and 45 use I forget, i'll try and find it again. What I'm pretty sure is that the tas5012 was a higher end ti part, and just recently got surpassed by the newer tas5015 chip.  10 is rated differently (distortion wise) than 25/45 and 50/70 for stereo mode.  XR10 has .9%, xr25/45 has .3%, and 50/70 have .09%, but they all have the same rated power (100wx2@6ohm).  

Headphone and subwoofer are handled through a dac i believe for xr25/45/50/70(found if you search through one of the old xr10 posts on DIYaudio), xr10 uses straight from front channels for headphone, and not sure on sub-out. Only difference for 25/45 to 50/70 is that for the front two channels there are different ti power chips used, with the 50/70 having the better ti chips. From what I've read on avsforum and audiocircle, headphone out on the 45/25 and 50/70 are not good. I have the xr10 and I don't think it sounds bad at all, better than my Rio Karma (which sounds similar to an Ipod because they use the same DAC/headphone amp chip). JRC makes the headphone op-amp on the xr10, not sure what is used on the other units.  When you plug in headohones on the xr10, main speakers are shut-off, confirming that it does use the front channels. Oh yeah, there is also copper grounding inside the xr10, I don't know whats in the other amps.

Analog/digital in's:
nothing special about this, I know that the xr10 is rated 5db higher for analog s/n ratio, 90 instead of 85 for the rest of them. there is no digital out on the 10, but there is on the rest of the series.10 has 2 optical in and 1 coax in,  45 have 3 optical and 1 coax in, 25 only 2 optical in and 1 coax in. The 50 and the 70 add another coax  in but loses an optical in (so 50/70 have 2 optical in and 2 coax in) and the 70 adds hdmi in/out.  XR10 does not feature s-video switching, only composite. XR10 has input for tv, dvd (including 6 ch in), and VCR in/out.    25/45  has inputs for cd, tape, vcr, tv, and dvd (and 6ch in), and audio out, but its fixed and not a pre-out.  25/45 have s-video/composite video switching, no component switching.  50/70 add component switching and front a/v (composite) in.

misc
XR70 has hdmi 1.1 input (audio and video) , but only 1.0 output (video ONLY).  XR10 does not have any banana type connectors for main speakers, they are all spring clips.  XR10 also features nichicon, elna, and even panasonic fm capacitors.  Also, as far as speaker set up goes, subwoofer for xr10 is fixed at a 200hz low pass, and "small" setting only allows 100hz high pass, "large" is full spectrum.  This is the same for 25/45, and I from looking at the 50/70 manual it is the same also.  Some poeple have reported that they hear a small clicking noise when volume is changed on the xr25.  Remote control for xr10/25/45 have more buttons on it than the xr50/70 remote, don't know if thats good or bad .  The xr10/25/45 use a small fan on the back of the unit, the xr50/70 do not.  I have had my xr10 for two months now, and have not heard the fan turn on once yet.  The screen on the xr10 is about the size of a TI solar calculator screen, and its hard to read from far away(8-10ft). I have not seen any other model so I can't compare. And one last note, my XR10 says its made in Japan, I don't know about the other models though.


 


I've compared this amp to an old sx-1010 of mine (110x2, .1% thd) . I'm using Mirage Omni260 speakers with a small Venturi 8' 150 watt sub. Analog source is a modified Technics SL-pd9, digital is emu0404.

SX-1010 vs. XR10
These sound different, and I'm not sure which one I prefer. The sx-1010 defintely has more headroom, it should as it weighs 50lbs. Listening to Herbie Hancock's "Gershwin's World," my favorite jazz cd, the sx-1010 is deep, everything sounds like it has an echo to it, but mostly the lady singer and the piano solos. I think this is do in part that the 1010 needs caps replaced and rolls off like -1.5 or 2db at 20khz when measured in RMAA, but it still sounds real nice. The xr10 analog is actually kinda close to the 1010, but I can sense that depth isn't as good, its much more forward. I can tell this with the ladies voice again and with trumpets- both seem much more closer and present, like 6 feet away, while the 1010 makes them feel like 30ft away. If I use the 0404 analog with the xr10 and low pass shelf to simulate the 1010 freq response, I get some of that nice echo back, not the same, but similar. Using the digital out on the emu, xr10 is much more detailed. Again, with the womens voice, I can more accurately sense she varies the loudness in her long standing notes. Ok, very difficult to explaning, but here's my best way of describing it: instead of hearing a long winded "eeaassyy," you hear "eeaasyeayeay." I would say overall its a tie because with the digital out on the 0404 eq'd to similar freq. response of the 1010 the xr10 and the 1010 are close sounding. Ambience, 1010 wins out, details xr10 wins out. If it was an analog source only, I'd say 1010.

I've also compared the two with faster music, like The New Deal, and Sound Tribe Sector Nine. XR10 easily beats out the 1010, no contest even when fed analog to both. The 1010 just can't match the speed of the digital amp, and the high end of the xr10 really shines with this music.

If you listen to classical, jazz or any other slow deep music, I think xr10 is an ok source IF it is a digital source, but its really a toss up for me which amp I prefer more for this style of music. If you listen to rock, techno, any other fast music, by all means give a digital amp a try, I think you'll be surpised how accurate they are.

From what I've read on various forums, some people feel that the high end freq. are less detailed on the xr10, but also less harsh when compared to the xr25/45.  Also, the xr50/70 may be able to handle lower ohm loads better than the 10/25/45 (a user claims to be able to use MMG's no problem with xr50), but this is only by the account of one user.

I think digital amps will eventually (who knows when) surpass Solid state amps for digital sources (cd, dvd, sacd, etc) in terms of sound quality, but I think tubes will always have a place in audio due to its pleasing sonic characteristics, and also because I love the simplicity of some vintage tube gear
 

[TIC]

Ryan,

Thanks for posting this excellent information. It should be very helpful to those possibly looking for a good receiver/amp at a good price. I wish I could have used it myself, but I have an excellent 2-channel system and wanted it for HT. However, its clip style speaker outputs won't work with the Nordost Z-plugs that I use on my in-wall cables.

I'm really currious about a digital receiver and I'm thinking of checking out the Sony STR-DA5000ES. Yeah, its a lot more money, but it has binding post that will work for me and it has gotten some pretty incredible reviews. It also has the Sony user interface that I really like.

I gotta sell my Sony STR-DA4ES first. I really like it, but as usual for an Audiophile, I wanna try something different. Too bad the XR10 didn't work for me cause it would have looked sweeet on the shelf with my cosmetically matching Panasonic DVD-XP30.

Enjoy,

TIC

[MCanfield]

I have a question over the speaker/crossover settings.  I just ordered (off of eBay) a new XR10 to pair with my Athena speaker package.   I just ordered the speakers, also - 4 AS-B1's and the As-C1 and the P400 sub.

The B1's are bookshelves that have a frequency response down to 60 hz.  So, knowing this, how should I setup the receiver to work best with these?  My guess is to set the speakers to 'small', thus setting the receiver crossover at 100 hz.

Does this sound correct?  My only fear is that I think I remember reading somewhere that the Athenas do better when set to 'large'  

Any thoughts?

[Wayne1]

I have been inside all of the Panasonic models except the SA-XR10. I can say, without a doubt , there are some discrepancies with the information posted here


Power supply
Differences between the xr10 and the 45 on the powersupply side are slim, I think the xr10 lacks one small transformer near the power cord that the 45 has. Also, xr10 uses two smaller main transformers, while xr45 uses only 1 bigger one. Xr70 is similar to the 45, but main transformer and smaller one right next to it is bigger and there are protection relays (which apparently degrade sound) for the speakers are on the p/s board as well according to wayne from Boulder cables on audiocircle. xr25 and 50 power supplies lack the extra filtering that the 10/45/70 have, and the 50 still has the protection relays for the speakers. The whole line uses the figure eight cord found on dvd players, xbox, ps2, etc. Lastly, xr10 uses a ferrite on the stock cord, all other models do not have this ferrite.

The XR-50 and 70 use the EXACT SAME power supply board. There are a few components added to supply power to the HDMI board. That is it.

The PS used in the SA-XR25 is just about the same as the SA-XR50/70. The power supply in the SA-XR45 has an additional section used for the  control of the output FET power supply. It has many additional active components as well as 6 additional large electrolytic power supply resevoir caps.

Again the power supply board in SA-XR25, 50 and 70 are about the same. The only one in my experience that is different is the SA-XR45.

The SA-XR25 and 45 are fan cooled. I have only had a fan come on when they are fed with test tones into load resistors.  The SA-XR50/70 do not have fans and run quite hot.

The SA-XR50/70 use THE SAME output section. It uses the same chipset and ouput devices for rear and center channels as does the 25/45. The difference is in the front channels. The drivers for the output FETs are different and will allow a bit more current to flow so the front channels can be used to drive two pair of speakers. The 50/70 have front speaker A/B switching through relays which allow A or B or both. The 70 has an extra relay board that allow the surround channels to be used to drive the speaker B output connectors, thus allowing passive bi-amping in stereo mode.

I feel that you should keep all mechanical connections in the signal path to a minimum. Speaker relays add additional mechanical connections which could degrade the sonics and will reduce current flow vs a straight piece of wire.

[tschanrm]

Wayne,  thanks for corrections about the p/s section.  I gathered a lot my info from reading other peoples posts and reading user manuals, so I tried the best I could to keep information accurate.

Mcanfield,

"Small" is set at 100hz, but I don't know the freq. rolloff for this filter.  I know that a subwoofer starts to become localized around 80hz and above, so you may want to try and compare your speakers at "large" and "small" to see which one sounds better at moderate volume levels.  In your case "Large" may sound better at low volumes because it sends the full sound spectrum to the speaker, but could also distort your speakers at louder volumes from  your speakers reaching maximum exursion from including those lower frequencies. Hope that helps

[TIC]

FYI to anyone interested in an XR-10. There is a new listing today on AudiogoN selling an XR10 for $125. Here is a link to the ad. BTW, I don't know the seller, just passing along the info..........


Who knows, you might be able to get it for even less.....


Enjoy,

TIC

[tomek]

i've got a question for anyone that is operating an xr10.  i was wondering if you could help me out.

i had the xr50 a few months back and i returned it to buy an xr10 off of ebay.  

one thing that i remember about the xr45 is that when i paused the cd player, there would be NO noise at all coming from the speakers.  even with the volume way up and my ear near the tweeter, there wasn't the slightest hiss.

i remember this being a surprise because my tube amp would produce a hiss and a hum.  

i just tried the digital inputs with the xr10 and i noticed that there IS a hiss when i pause the cd player.

two questions:

1) can anyone else with an xr10 confirm this?
2) do you think that this difference between the two amps, if it is not a malfunctioning amp, has any significance?  i was VERY impressed by the fact that with no input signal, that was not a TOUCH of noise.

toodles!

[ToddSTS]

I have both (XR10, XR45).  I get a very, very slight his on both.  And only when I crank the volume up to what would be ear splitting, skull cracking volume if I actually had the source playing.  I went from a Denon AVR-3200 to the XR45 and the first thing I noticed was the lack of hiss when I powered the amp on.

Edit:  OK I went back and tested again because initially I remember hearing nothing from the 45 even when cranked.  So, with a dvd player (Denon 3800) feeding digital coax 16/44.1 to the XR45 on pause, the 45 makes zero noise.  However, when I switch to DVD-6 CH I get a hiss.  When I switched to DVR/VCR I got a hum, I also got a hiss on TAPE.  No hiss at all on TV (which is set to one of the Optical ins).  So looks like the XR45 only hisses on the analog inputs.  The XR10 hisses even on the digital coax input from the DVD player (different player Pio DV-333).  I haven't tried to detect a hiss on optical input on the XR10.  I'll try that later.  So far the 10 hisses the 45 doesn't (on digital inputs).  I only ever hear a hiss when its cranked.

Hope that helps.  

Todd

[Red Dragon Audio]

I have both (XR10, XR45).  I get a very, very slight his on both.  And only when I crank the volume up to what would be ear splitting, skull cracking volume if I actually had the source playing.  I went from a Denon AVR-3200 to the XR45 and the first thing I noticed was the lack of hiss when I powered the amp on.

Edit:  OK I went back and tested again because initially I remember hearing nothing from the 45 even when cranked.  So, with a dvd player (Denon 3800) feeding digital coax 16/44.1 to the  ...

I had the XR25 and still have the XR45.  The 25 made clicking noises when changing the volume and had a very slight noise when cranked up all the way; the 45 doesn't have that noise.  I only tested the coaxial digital inputs as that was my main interest.

Really they're both superbly quiet but the 45 is just dead silent and has zero background noise.

[JnC]

So, with a dvd player (Denon 3800) feeding digital coax 16/44.1 to the XR45 on pause, the 45 makes zero noise. However, when I switch to DVD-6 CH I get a hiss.

In 6-CH you're picking up the noise floor from the A/D converters and amplifying it.

If I switch the XR70 to an analog input I can generate hiss as well.

Regards,
JnC

[tschanrm]

Edit: OK I went back and tested again because initially I remember hearing nothing from the 45 even when cranked. So, with a dvd player (Denon 3800) feeding digital coax 16/44.1 to the XR45 on pause, the 45 makes zero noise. However, when I switch to DVD-6 CH I get a hiss. When I switched to DVR/VCR I got a hum, I also got a hiss on TAPE. No hiss at all on TV (which is set to one of the Optical ins). So looks like the XR45 only hisses on the analog inputs. The XR10 hisses even on the digital coax input from the DVD player (different player Pio DV-333). I haven't tried to detect a hiss on optical input on the XR10. I'll try that later. So far the 10 hisses the 45 doesn't (on digital inputs). I only ever hear a hiss when its cranked.

I wonder if the a/d converters are on at all times and causing the noise in the xr10.  I tested this on my xr-10, if I switch to a digital input, I hear a slight hiss when volume reaches -23, but I have to put my head right next to the speaker.  But, if I switch from analog to digital and don't play anything, I get no hiss at -23 until I play something then pause it.  I'm going to mod my xr10 at a later date, I already have the service manual for it, maybe I'll remove the 6-ch analog path then and see if that removes the hiss.