[Inscrutable]

Is it possible to find a 'good' quality preamp with:
>remote
>decent phono stage (doesn't HAVE to be low output MC compatible, but it'd be nice)
>built-in headphone amp (not el cheapo op-amp driven)?  
New or used.   And not that relative price is necessarily an arbiter of quality, but for general frame of reference somewhere in the $1500-3000 range when new.  Preferably tube-based, but this may unnecessarily limit an already-thin herd.  Seems you can find any two of the three fairly readily, but getting the third is a bit more elusive.

Also, if you had to go separate for one of these, what is your opinion on which one you'd include/exclude between the phono or phones? (obviously the remote has to be a given)

[Lost81]

I do not remember if it has a remote volume control capability, but the Audible Illusions Mod 3A, or the L2 fits 2 of your requirements, and certainly lie comfortably within your budget.

There is a Mod 3A on Audiogon right now with the relatively-rare John Curl designed Moving Coil Phono stage going for US$1320.

If you do get it, take note that the Audible Illusion Preamplifiers are hard on tubes, NOS tubes would literally burn a hole in your pocket. (A friend who owns the L2 told me that if you listen to it 6 days a week, in 3 hour sessions, a pair of modern production tubes will last 6 months    )

I do not know the seller of the unit, nor do I endorse him in any way.


Cheers,
-Lost81

[vpolineni]

inscrutable,
   cary preamps are known to have good headphone amps.  you may want to give them a try.  the slp-98p seems to meet your requirements.  good luck.

[electricbear]

you cuold do an ARC SP16, these retail for about $2500 new with phono which would leave you $500 for a good headphone amp

[gitarretyp]

If you want tubes, the kora eclipse meets all of your requirements. It can be had for 1.5-2.5k used.

If you don't mind solid state, you might look into a ps audio pca-2. They don't come with a phono stage by default, but ps audio has an add in phono card for them.

[Carlman]

You might try getting someone to make this pre for you.  I would think someone would be willing to add the missing components you seek in that price range.
For instance, Mark at 'Juicy Music' may be able to modify his Blueberry to have a heaphone out and remote.  I don't know.  

If you're into kitsets, the AKSA GK-1 has everything you seek except I'm not sure about the headphone out.  

Modwright may have something you're looking for also.

I know these aren't the 'wow, that's it' replies you wanted but, just a thought.

Good luck,
Carl

[bubba966]

While you're on the topic of having one built to spec like that, I'm sure Gary Dodd of Dodd Audio would be able to build you that. He builds damn nice looking (and great sounding) gear.

[doug s.]

i would recommend looking for a melos sha-gold/r.  this is a linestage w/remote control for wolume & balance.  no fono stage, but it has one of the best headfone amps ever made, according to folk into headfones.  it retailed for $2k.  it can now be upgraded to sound even better by melos audio restorations...  also, compared to the audible illusions, fwiw, an audible illusions & cary dealer told me the melos kicked both the a/i *and* the cary's butt, when i told him i was considering looking for a used melos a coupla years back.

doug s.

[Carlman]

That dealer probably had not done a real test or heard the results if he said that.  I've owned, heard and compared AI's and Melos pre's... and have heard separately Cary's on multiple occasions.  They each have a different 'sound' to them but to say the Melos was MUCH better is strange.  Maybe he had a used one he wanted to sell.  I agree that (when they worked) the Melos pre's sound awesome.  However, they *should* for $2,k or so.  But, so do the Ai's and Cary's.  I prefer the sound of an AI to most preamps I've heard.  However, they're noisy and go through tubes too fast.  Also, the old technical guy I talked to at AI was kind of a jerk... I felt like he was scolding me like a kid for using NOS tubes.  Apparently if you use the tubes AI sells (something Russian), they last longer and it operates more quietly.  However, I tried those tubes and it made the preamp sound cold and lifeless.. I called it the 'Siberian Sound'.  I don't know how long they'd last but, it wasn't long before I was burning through NOS again.

Cary's sound has something missing that I can't put my finger on.  It's a light and pretty kind of sound that I never quite warm up to.  I've heard this trait in 2 of their amps, and 1 preamp.  But, I haven't compared it directly to anything I've owned.  

The Melos has a richer upper midrange but sounded like it rolled off highs a bit compared to the AI.  The presentation of frequencies didn't sound completely flat.  I tried various tubes which helped a lot.  The Melos was a 'musical' preamp.  I've listened to Gary Dodd's pre, the MA-111, and the SHA-gold.  They have a house sound that's pretty good.  However, I sooned learned that "Melos" was a synonym for "broken hifi".  I had more problems with those Melos than anything else.  Lots of weird stuff that was tough to isolate.  When I started researching it, I could've read for days all the info about the problems people had with Melos electronics.

Anyway, this is a long way to say I think that dealer was full of it... but, thought I'd add what I learned in my past with these preamps.

[doug s.]

That dealer probably had not done a real test or heard the results if he said that. I've owned, heard and compared AI's and Melos pre's... and have heard separately Cary's on multiple occasions. They each have a different 'sound' to them but to say the Melos was MUCH better is strange. Maybe he had a used one he wanted to sell. icon_wink.gif I agree that (when they worked) the Melos pre's sound awesome. However, they *should* for $2,k or so. But, so do the Ai's and Cary's. I prefer the sound of an AI to most preamps I've heard. However, they're noisy and go through tubes too fast. Also, the old technical guy I talked to at AI was kind of a jerk... I felt like he was scolding me like a kid for using NOS tubes. Apparently if you use the tubes AI sells (something Russian), they last longer and it operates more quietly. However, I tried those tubes and it made the preamp sound cold and lifeless.. I called it the 'Siberian Sound'. icon_wink.gif I don't know how long they'd last but, it wasn't long before I was burning through NOS again.

Cary's sound has something missing that I can't put my finger on. It's a light and pretty kind of sound that I never quite warm up to. I've heard this trait in 2 of their amps, and 1 preamp. But, I haven't compared it directly to anything I've owned.

The Melos has a richer upper midrange but sounded like it rolled off highs a bit compared to the AI. The presentation of frequencies didn't sound completely flat. I tried various tubes which helped a lot. The Melos was a 'musical' preamp. I've listened to Gary Dodd's pre, the MA-111, and the SHA-gold. They have a house sound that's pretty good. However, I sooned learned that "Melos" was a synonym for "broken hifi". I had more problems with those Melos than anything else. Lots of weird stuff that was tough to isolate. When I started researching it, I could've read for days all the info about the problems people had with Melos electronics.

Anyway, this is a long way to say I think that dealer was full of it... but, thought I'd add what I learned in my past with these preamps.

if the dealer, "audio connection", in verona nj, had a melos pre f/s, i would certainly have bought it from him!     he used to sell melos, and therefore knew the piece quite well.  i had called him asking about the ai, & the cary.  i ended up getting a used cary slp-98 that i actually thought was quite nice, if a little too laid back.  but, it dint hold a candle to the m.a.r.-modded ma333r i ended up with.  

i agree that melos reliability was a nightmare when they were still in biz, which is why they went under.  two main reasons they were done in - their "photentiometer" wolume pot, easily the most transparent pot extant, imo, was so sensitive, that almost half were damaged in shipping.  (cj, i understand, tried to buy melos when they were still a wiable entity, yust to get hold of the photentiometer patent, that's how good *they* thought it was.)  the other problem was the design of their amp boards was seriously flawed in that a ground trace was way to close to one of the main power traces, & they would eventually arc, w/disastrous results.  my ma333 pre was trouble-free for three years.  i have since sent it back to m.a.r. & exchanged it w/another of their customers for a single ended iteration (mine was balanced), cuz i wanted the added inputs it offers - 6 line input/two tape inputs, vs the balanced iterations' 3 line inputs/1 tape input.  this also has their most recent tube-controlled wolume pot, designed for m.a.r. by mark porzilli, that's supposedly even *better* than the original photentiometer - i cannot wait to try it!

doug s.

[Inscrutable]

Thanks for the input guys.  Confirming my suspicion and casual observation that there are damn few that do it all.  I think if I have to give something up, I'd probably go with a separate phono stage - there are just so many good ones out there, and the relative upgrade from internal phono to external is probably greater (or at least more important to me) than internal>external headphone.  Or maybe I'm just going to have to live with the clutter of all separate - the cable guys have to eat too, I guess  

[Uptown Audio]

The Rogue Audio 99 Magnum has all of those properties and is within your budget, new with warranty. The internal phono stage is optional and can be set-up as MM or MC. It uses four tubes in the linestage and four in the phono section.
-Bill

check out www.rogueaudio.com

[doug s.]

The Rogue Audio 99 Magnum has all of those properties and is within your budget, new with warranty. The internal phono stage is optional and can be set-up as MM or MC. It uses four tubes in the linestage and four in the phono section.
-Bill

check out www.rogueaudio.com

the 99 has a headfone amp built in?  i owned a magnum 99, & i don't recall this.  also, i think the rogue's spec for output impedence is highly optimistic.  my real-world experience indicated an output impedence of at least 2.5k ohms, not the 150 ohms output impedence that my rogue was spec'd at.  (i see from rogue's site that they now upped it to 350).  my 99 couldn't drive a 5m pair of ic's feeding the 25kohm input impedence of my marchand x-over.  it sounded *way* coloured, way too bloomy, & the bass & high treble were mia.  the rogue 99 magnum's replacement - a cary slp98, rated at 850 ohms output impedence - had none of these difficulties...

ymmv,

doug s.

[Uptown Audio]

Sorry that you had problems, but I know it is not the fault of the design as we can drive any amplifer that we have tried with excellent results and all of their units get consistently outstanding reviews from everyone (aside from you of course). They do have headphone outputs and it is included in the spec sheet. They can also produce up to 30v of output and are only 100 ohms at 1.5v. Your measurements are either totally inaccurate or you had a problem with the unit. It's only real flaw in my view, is the choice of the 6SN7 tube for the linestage, which are easily damaged and can be difficult to find good examples of. They were chosen for their sonics, not their popularity. The amplifier itself is exceptionally well built and will wear very well. If anyone has any doubts as to the true specifications or capabilities, the electrical engineer Mark O'Brien, is very easy to talk with and can provide many references of satisfied users and of real world performance results.
-Bill

[doug s.]

Sorry that you had problems, but I know it is not the fault of the design as we can drive any amplifer that we have tried with excellent results and all of their units get consistently outstanding reviews from everyone (aside from you of course). They do have headphone outputs and it is included in the spec sheet. They can also produce up to 30v of output and are only 100 ohms at 1.5v. Your measurements are either totally inaccurate or you had a problem with the unit. It's only real flaw in my view, is the choice of the 6SN7 tube for the linestage, which are easily damaged and can be difficult to find good examples of. They were chosen for their sonics, not their popularity. The amplifier itself is exceptionally well built and will wear very well. If anyone has any doubts as to the true specifications or capabilities, the electrical engineer Mark O'Brien, is very easy to talk with and can provide many references of satisfied users and of real world performance results.
-Bill

it certainly is possible that i had a bum unit, but i wonder, since i had it shipped to mark o'brien before i took delivery, cuz i wanted a second set of outputs installed.  (which could add further to the impedence issue, as this effectively doubles the pre's output impedence, when in use.  even mark suggested i disconnect the second out, to see if things would improve.)

re: my "measurements", i do not recall the walue of resistors i used, but i used them to cross the outputs, to see if i could hear an audible spl drop.  dennis had of cary walked me thru the procedure, to help me determine what walues to use, & what it meant when i heard a drop in sound level.  it was a few years ago, & to be honest, i do not remember.  all i remember is the easily audible drop in spl, w/the resistor walue i used, indicated an actual output impedence of ~2.5kohms.

re: the 6sn7 tubes, i purchased some spendy ge nos tubes to try w/the unit prior to selling it - i really *did* wanna give this unit a fair shake.  they were certainly a bit better than the stock tubes, but not enuff to make me wanna keep the pre.  and, the pre is still microphonic as all get-out.  yust the slightest touching of the pre could be heard thru the speakers.  and, any reostat-controlled lighting in the house had to be either turned off or all the way on, as these could also be heard thru the speakers, even tho i was using power conditioning.

in all fairness, i know a lot of folk like this pre, so i think synergy is at play here - as is the case w/much of audio.  but, i really think this pre will have a hard time w/long ic's to an amp, especially w/amps that have input impedence <25kohms.  and, i have received a number of private emails regarding my comments from rogue owners that sold their pre's cuz of experiences not all that different from mine - especially the microphonics issue.

regards,

doug s.

[BeeBop]

How about a Bryston BP25? Has everything you're looking for in the price range you state. I am very happy with mine (hooked up to a Bryston 3BSST amp). I do not have the phono stage but I have seen several positive comments about their phone stage in Audio Asylum. You will probably be able to get one cheap on Audiogon now that the BP26 has been announced.

[Inscrutable]

Actually, 'and now for something completely different' ... sorta  I ended up getting a very good deal on a Plinius integrated, which gives me the phono, but foregoes a headphone output.  Except, that an acquaintance has a pair of Stax he's not using, which can be driven off the second set of speaker outputs on the Plinius ... at least while I look for a used headphone amp. Thanks again!

[meilankev]

Tim,

That's great the Plinius worked out.  And since it has the second set of speaker terminals, my Stax headphones will fit you perfectly.  Let me know about getting them to you.

To be honest, it would be better if you contacted me through Home Theater Talk, as I spend much more time there than I do here on Audio Circle.

Kevin

[Inscrutable]

Kevin,
I didn't know you were here at all, actually.  I think I sent you a PM over at HTT a couple days ago?  Gotta run to a meeting, talk to ya later. Thanks!

[JLM]

How about this, a Audio by Van Alstine transcendence 7 EC ($1950)?
  http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/preamplifier/transcendence_seven_ec.htm