[jibzilla]

So I have been djing and buying records since 2004. The records that I bought and dj'd with were UK drum and bass/breakbeat though and awfully hard to find at various record shops in St.Louis so I never bought records at any of the record shops in stl. I bought 3 collections from other dj's in the area and at UK techno shops like breakbeat.co.uk and redeyerecords.co.uk.

For the last 5-6 years I have been heavy into hifi and bought a nice vintage Japaneese TT. I'm a big techno fan but also enjoy classic rock allot and wanted to get my toes wet. Since the record stores in the stl. have quite a bit of classic rock I thought it would be nice to keep my money local. I have been in V.V. and Streetside who know how many times (buying cd's back then) and wanted to try a new store and saw allot of positive reviews for Euclid Records.

I went to Euclid Records yesterday. Browsed around and went to the checkout counter with 20 lp's. Nice store, or so I thought. Turn's out 8 of the records I bought were reissues and were not my cup of tea. Just no analog sound at all and I was not pleased with them especially since 8 of them set me back $240, $500 total for the 20 lps. Went to return the 8 reissues today for store credit which I was aware of on the sales ticket. I said they were defective and they told me they were not and the best they could do for me was $70 of the $240 that I spent. I ended up agreeing to it rather than make a scene but I was shocked at how they treated me. Just very rude and condescending.

The cashier told me if I bought a t-shirt and wore it I could not return it. I told her as long as it has tags and a sales ticket I can't even tell you how many times I have returned clothes for store credit. I mean it is store credit you have my money regardless and the sales ticket shows I bought the records less than 24 hours ago. I told her I have not done it myself but I have seen customers return used batteries at Wal-Mart for store credit. This did not seem to have any affect on her and she made me feel like I was jerk for even trying to get a refund.

Just me but if someone walked into my store and dropped $500 the first time they visited I would take whatever drop in resale value to hold onto the customer.

Really not happy with this experience. Was hoping someone with allot of experience buying records locally could give me some pointers. I will never step foot inside Euclid Records again. Other than Ray Samuels audio and Springair this is the worst customer service I have ever received audio wise.

[daves]

So you took back 8 perfect records, claiming they were defective?

Do you think they are rubes at Euclid? The fact that you did not ask (or know) that they were reissues is on you, not Euclid. They are all quite knowledgable, and the two owners and Steve Pick would have been glad to point this fact out to you if you had asked.

Once you figure out that you digging a hole for yourself, it is a good idea to stop.

Euclid, VV, and Planet Score all have great reputations, and they have worked years to develop these sterling reputations.

If you want a good import store, the record shop on Manchester in the Grove, just east of Kingshighway, is a good place to hunt. Just make sure to ASK whether they are originals or rereleases, since it is the burning need for you.

[jibzilla]

Thank you for the suggestions. I really appreciate it. Any swap meets or thrift stores?

I don't know what to tell you about Euclid. If you are tight with them I understand your position.

[daves]

Tight with them? I have known the principals at all three store for over 35 years. If you wanted first releases, you needed to make that known. If you did, and they misstated, then it is on them. If you didn't, even if you required original releases, it is on you, if have have opened and removed the shrinkwrap, and then played them.

I'm sorry, but customer service ends when the customer comes back and misstates the album condition for other than the truth. These stores have a well documented return rate on various imports - it is one of the metrics they religiously track - and to have a 40% warped return rate tripped their bullshit meter to overload. They probably felt you had taken the albums home, taped/burned them, and were bringing them back to get another set to follow the cycle again. I would bet money this is the reason they gave you the lowest possible return to stock offer.

The burning question - did you request assistance to confirm they were the original pressing, and not reissues?

[thunderbrick]

I'm not tight with them, but I agree with Dave.  Do your homework FIRST to make sure you know what your are getting.   I've made plenty of mistakes, but if I'm spending $500 I'd damn sure know exactly what I am looking for.

[Scott F.]

I don't think it is a matter of being 'tight' with Euclid, I think it's more a matter of "welcome to modern day vinyl buying'. Vinyl today is an absolute crap shoot. so much so that I've stopped buying it. So much of the current vinyl being stamped today simply sounds like hammered shit. Not too long ago I picked up Alison Krauss and Union Station's Paper Airplane and the free MP3 download sounded better than the vinyl.

The only vinyl that I know for sure consistently sounds good are the Blue Note re-issues. As much as you and I want new all vinyl to sound good, you'll have better luck picking up a turd from the clean end.

As for returning vinyl that has been opened and played, I don't know of any store out there that will allow it. You have to be diligent when you buy vinyl. Make sure they aren't trying to jam 20+ minutes on a single side (<17 sounds best). Read all the notes to make sure they have been cut from the original master tapes and not a high resolution digital file.

That typed, hi-rez digital is pretty darned good....typed by a guy that has ~4000 albums and a vinyl set up that costs more than many peoples cars.

[JDUBS]

I said they were defective

You told them the records were defective because you didn't like how they sounded?  For real??

-Jim

[jibzilla]

Tight with them? I have known the principals at all three store for over 35 years. If you wanted first releases, you needed to make that known. If you did, and they misstated, then it is on them. If you didn't, even if you required original releases, it is on you, if have have opened and removed the shrinkwrap, and then played them.

I'm sorry, but customer service ends when the customer comes back and misstates the album condition for other than the truth. These stores have a well documented return rate on various imports - it is one of the metrics they religiously track - and to have a 40% warped return rate tripped their bullshit meter to overload. They probably felt you had taken the albums home, taped/burned them, and were bringing them back to get another set to follow the cycle again. I would bet money this is the reason they gave you the lowest possible return to stock offer.

The burning question - did you request assistance to confirm they were the original pressing, and not reissues?

Yes. I wasn't quite sure until check out that I had re issues and they pointed that out to me that they could not give me a discount. Originally I asked them for a 10% off discount for bulk purchasing and they were cool with that. I then asked them for 15% off the used lp's and no discount on the re issues and they were cool with that.

I have never listened to a re issued classic rock record before last night. I figured at $30 a pop average they would sound just as good as the real thing. Not the case so much. All 8 of them, which is fine and so is the $70 refund.

It was when the cashier asked the other cashier to not go on break for 5-10 minutes right in front of me and then sushed me off to go look at records I had just looked at hours ago, for several hours, that I got a bad vibe. Even the other cashier was like "What for?". There was no one else in the store. Really made me feel like she was going to call the police or something. Just about said screw it and walked out before she figured out the refund amount.

[jibzilla]

I'm not tight with them, but I agree with Dave.  Do your homework FIRST to make sure you know what your are getting.   I've made plenty of mistakes, but if I'm spending $500 I'd damn sure know exactly what I am looking for.

I had a list. Just was not aware of re issues and well their issues.

[jibzilla]

You told them the records were defective because you didn't like how they sounded?  For real??

-Jim

Originally I told cashiers they did not sound right to me. The one cashier then told me that the record has to be warped or scratched and once opened non refundable. I told him that not sounding right should qualify as defective. So yes.

[jibzilla]

I don't think it is a matter of being 'tight' with Euclid, I think it's more a matter of "welcome to modern day vinyl buying'. Vinyl today is an absolute crap shoot. so much so that I've stopped buying it. So much of the current vinyl being stamped today simply sounds like hammered shit. Not too long ago I picked up Alison Krauss and Union Station's Paper Airplane and the free MP3 download sounded better than the vinyl.

The only vinyl that I know for sure consistently sounds good are the Blue Note re-issues. As much as you and I want new all vinyl to sound good, you'll have better luck picking up a turd from the clean end.

As for returning vinyl that has been opened and played, I don't know of any store out there that will allow it. You have to be diligent when you buy vinyl. Make sure they aren't trying to jam 20+ minutes on a single side (<17 sounds best). Read all the notes to make sure they have been cut from the original master tapes and not a high resolution digital file.

That typed, hi-rez digital is pretty darned good....typed by a guy that has ~4000 albums and a vinyl set up that costs more than many peoples cars.

Thanks for the advice.

[Baumli]

jibzilla,

I suggest you mark this experience up to a lesson learned, albeit an expensive lesson. I think Dave is right; I know of no record store that would take a record back just because you realized later than you did not like that issue. Many people buy LPs, take them home, tape them or burn them, and then try to return the LP claiming it was defective. I heard a customer, leaving Vintage Vinyl some years ago after he had returned an LP, bragging to his companion that this was what he had done. I don't blame retailers for trying to protect themselves from this practice.

You need to realize that, as Scott said, most new vinyl is a joke. Usually the pressing is a digital download, so all you are getting is the digital signal plus surface noise, so why not skip the vinyl and settle for the CD? Back in the early days of CD, when they started with those wonderful 96 kHz. master tapes which Herbert von Karajan initiated as the digital standard, they would shove all of that information onto the vinyl (good vinyl can hold up to about 150 kHz.) and you had a fine sounding piece of vinyl. But the companies realized they could get by with a less complicated production process. If the digital tape for the CD was only going to hold 44 kHz. then why not use the same tape for both? So they did. But here's the rub (and I am going by the authority of Keith Herron on all this, and admit I might not remember all the details exactly right) 10 kHz. of any CD is never used. It is reserved for video, in case (as happens rarely) the record company decides to put an accompanying video on it. So actually that digital master tape for a CD actually isn't 44 kHz. as it is often touted to be, it actually is 33 kHz. (about 1 kHz. gets used for tracking and anti-skip information, and the other 33 kHz. is the music you have to settle for). There are a few exceptions to this. Sometimes the original digital master tape gets compressed to 33 kHz. for the CD, but they retain the 96 kHz. master tape for the LP. Other times they make a true 44 kHz. digital master tape for the vinyl, and then compress it further to a 33 kHz. master tape for the CD. You certainly can hear the rare instances when a piece of "digital vinyl" is from a 44 kHz. master tape versus a 33 kHz. master tape, and believe me you absolutely know when that vinyl was pressed from a 96 kHz. digital master tape. But the way things are today, when you buy any piece of vinyl,  you're almost always getting 33 kHz. (whereas on an old RCA "Shaded Dog" or an early '80s DG you were getting an analogue signal that would be the equivalent of about 150 kHz. were it digital.) We who listen eventually figure this out, but I remember how back in 1993, when COWGIRL'S PRAYER by Emmylou Harris came out, I bought both the LP and the CD, and realized that the vinyl didn't sound one bit better than the CD. After much time on the phone, I finally got to speak directly to the fellow who had engineered the master tapes for both the CD and the vinyl, and he admitted that they were the exact same master tape compressed down from the original master tape. That was my "cold water initiation" and I've never trusted a new piece of vinyl since unless I first do some research into it. 

You have to examine any vinyl stamped in the digital age very carefully. Likely it is made from the same digital tape that is used for the CD but downloaded onto vinyl, and the vinyl used these days itself tends to be awful. So I repeat: Usually you're better off buying the CD if you're buying new. Once in a while you get lucky, and the fine print will say that this LP was pressed in analogue from the original analogue tape. If the vinyl it was pressed on is good quality, then you're in luck. But read that information carefully!

If you're buying used, there's a good chance that even if it isn't scratched or warped, it was bought two years ago by some kid (allow me the word) who got infatuated with vinyl, picked up a cheap turntable like a Technics that originally retailed at Wal-Mart for $100, put a cheap cartridge on it that couldn't even be adjusted on that cheap arm, so it tracked at about 6 grams, and a year later he lost all interest in his vinyl and sold the LPs back to a used record store. So when you buy the records that were in his small collection, you've bought LPs that look fine, aren't scratched or warped and so can't be returned, but have so much surface noise as to make them unplayable. I've actually bought old LPs at Euclid, Vintage Vinyl, and Record Exchange that looked fine, but were so bad I didn't even feel good about donating them to Goodwill and having someone else be disappointed too. I discarded them, which is all they deserved.

Of course, there's one other option. You can wait for me to die, and see if my wife puts my record collection (about 10,000) up for sale. But don't get your hopes up. There's a lot of opera in there, and not one bit of heavy metal. But if you want over 50 different versions of Handel's MESSIAH, then you'll definitely be in luck. But of course maybe I'll be lucky and live longer than you do. Sometimes there is justice in this cruel world.

Mortally yours,

Francis Baumli

[JohnR]

This thread is really quite an education! Not that I'm from STL, so pardon my intrusion, but I did go up the arch once. Long may Mr Baumli blast his neighbours with the Messiah.

[FullRangeMan]

Jibzilla,
To me its clear that they deceived you with a bulling policy and pressure on the client, in my country we have a consumer protection code for abusive cases like this.

I know well this kind of shop, there were many of them here before we have this law.

You do not have the obligation to know and understand in deep issues of LPs, who has the duty to know these details and alert you is the shop.
Whatever the outcome of this situation you must never buy in this store again, the idea is not to favor the error.

[JohnH12]

Several good posts here, wish we had a like button.  Scott F. I seem to remember a few more descriptive words in your post that were spot on 

[Scott F.]

Yup, them was scientific terms 

[jibzilla]

Thank you for all of the replies. I appreciate it more than you know. I should have done this before I went to the record store. In my defense the record store did have quite a few great reviews. In Euclid's defense I did get a fire Peter Gabriel and Frank Zappa in my used lp purchase, very quiet.  My 2 most expensive records though, a Jefferson Airplane and Cream, had a ton of crackle that my N.G. 1.0 could not get rid of. I think I'm just going to take a deep breath and do allot more research.

I know all of this stuff probably seems like rookie stuff to most of you but I have to start somewhere. It would not surprise me if some of you did not know most of my dnb 33 records actually get spun at 45. At least it surprised the heck out of my dad. 

Scott I really get where you are coming from with the mp3's. I'm very please with my used Metrum Pavane and Tidal and consider myself lucky to have found that dac on sale right when it first came out. Still there is something about the right record with the right cart, TT and phono pre that really gets my emotional juices flowing. Thanks to Yahoo Japan/Aleado, Acupwr, 2juki, and someone here in St.Louis with a used avid pellar pre I have a amazing TT setup for less than the Pavane used. Best of both worlds but finding the records might take me a while.

I think what throws for the biggest loop is that my techno records that were pressed not that long ago, early 90's-early2000's, sounded better than the reissues.

[LesterSleepsIn]

[quote author=Baumli link=topic=144764.msg1548575#msg1548575 date=

 There's a lot of opera in there, and not one bit of heavy metal. But if you want over 50 different versions of Handel's MESSIAH, then you'll definitely be in luck.

[/quote]

I do! I do! Pick me! Pick me! Oh, wait, is this a contest? It's not? Dang.

Anyway here's to your long happy life.

Blessed,
LSI

[Scott F.]

jz,

There may be some hope to cleaning up the poor sound you are getting from a couple of your new records. A couple years ago I bought a pair of Amy Winehouse albums. Back in Black was absolutely horrible to listen to. The sound was a muted, undefined blob that hung between the speakers. I was able to get pretty reasonable sound, not great but reasonable sound by cleaning them several times. I've done this on several albums and it's helped.

Now, cleaning. there are many different approaches for cleaning and I ABSOLUTELY don't want to derail the thread on some vinyl cleaning tangent. I'm only going to describe my process for cleaning. Those with different opinions, please post elsewhere (you know who you are).

I use the Disc doctor products including his scrub brushes. I remove the liquid and do a secondary rinse with my VPI record cleaning machine. I've found that some (not all) pressing plants either use a slightly different vinyl formula or maybe less than stellar pellets (both are pure guesses as to the reason) and need heavy cleanings to make them sound the best. I honestly don't know what the issue is. Maybe its excess mold release left on the surface or other impurities that is causing the poor sound.

Ultimately, I think it took three heavy scrubbings before the sound came around. Again, it wasn't great sound, just better than its maiden spin. Something like this may well help get decent sound out of a couple of those poor sounding albums. They likely won't sound perfect but they may sound better than your first spins. I would highly suggest getting either some Disc doctor cleaner and brushes or you could even pick up some from  Jim at Osage audio (a fellow GAS member). Give your vinyl a few good scrubs to get all the crap out of the grooves. You'll find besides them 'opening up', the surface noise will go down too.

Good luck and be sure to do your due diligence before you invest in expensive new vinyl.

[FullRangeMan]

Most if not all current edition of LPs are made from digital masters, even old albums, hence the cold sound, those who know how sound a analog master on vinyl know the difference.

Vinyl from a digital master is ridiculous.