Speaker Kits

mresseguie · « **on:** 2 Jul 2016, 04:25 pm »

Does anyone have experience with the various kits that Seas Audio promotes on its website? [ I'm especially interested in the Bifrost and Exotic kits.]

How good are the crossover designs? Are the Seas kits every bit as good as the speakers sold by speaker manufacturers (ex given: Salk Exotica Monitors), or does Seas just slap them together to generate interest?

Has anyone heard both the Bifrost and Exotic speakers (or Bifrost and Salk Exotica Monitors for that matter)?

Similarly, Madisound sells speaker kits. How good are they? I'm not interested in entry level speakers; I'm specifically interested in the best two-way designs.

And, yes, I'm considering either Kairos or SpiritWinds kits from Meniscus as well.

I want to take new speakers in my luggage to Taiwan this Fall. In kit form, even with cabinets, I won't have to pay $300 shipping and $400 to $1000 import duty. Big speakers are out of the question.

Thanks and enjoy a fun and safe July 4th weekend!

Michael

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #1 on:** 2 Jul 2016, 06:24 pm »

I have also looked into the Bitfrost DIY set. If it were not for some EJ Jordan fullrange drivers I have used as a fullrange driver which I commissioned Bob Brines to build me into a full set of TL speakers with helper carbon woofers, I would look into these speakers.

Unlike other small 2 way speakers, these Bitfrost sets I consider almost fullrange in performance, while there are MANY high end 2 ways in the market, I doubt they will surpass these in performance. If you just consider these, the parts themselves are available in commercial products that are no holds barre in terms of cost but people who can afford such products never bother making these sort of speakers DIY. Their wallets do not need to.

The only drawback I see with this sort of venture is that if you were to sell them because you find them unsuitable, which I highly doubt, these will fetch little in used market.

BTW, these speaker demand the highest quality amplification you can provide.

mresseguie · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Jul 2016, 07:33 pm »

My current plan is to have the following components:

Nuprime ST-10 amp
Gustard X20u DAC
Don Sachs SP14 preamp (or I save money by using my AVA T8 preamp)
TWL PC, RCA interconnects, and PCs
P.I. Audio DigiBUSS, MiniBUSS

Later on, I'll probably buy a Taiwanese built EL34 tube amp that I auditioned earlier this year. It was so good, I almost cried when I had to return it.

JLM · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Jul 2016, 07:42 pm »

Good idea Michael, but...

Have you considered a satellite/sub solution? Depending on the satellite (main speakers) you could do without the sub in smaller rooms (or turn it down if a neighbors problem). The drivers/crossover for the mains could be smaller (cheaper to ship). You might consider looking into a design that could serve as desktop or in-room mains (with or without a sub). You could even look into a single driver design that would be even cheaper to ship.

Again Bob Brines has a desktop/in-room single driver transmission line design that he sells plans, pre-cut panels, or fully completed for. It uses a Mark Audio 7.3 driver, same as Dave at Planet 10 offers drivers, modified drivers, plans, and/or unique completed speakers for.

Again E.J. Jordan now offers a premium single driver, the Eikona version 2, at $500/pair that is rated down to 55 Hz in a desktop sized bass reflex cabinet.

mresseguie · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Jul 2016, 08:32 pm »

Hi, JLM.

I have considered smaller two-way speakers or single driver speakers supported by sub(s). However, after a pretty good number of listening sessions in Taiwan and N. America, I'm pretty certain that single driver speakers don't satisfy me. That said, I have not heard any of Bob Brines' speakers, so it's quite possible I simply haven't heard enough designs to form an informed opinion.

Two way speakers with 6" or 7" midwoofers satisfy most of my wants/desires/expectations. Sure, a nice pair of floorstanding speakers with two eight inch bass drivers sounds better, but I can't fit them in my luggage, can I?

I had considered buying a 4-way kit and having the cabinets made there, but good cabinets made there proved to be very expensive. I also considered repurposing low quality Kareoke floorstanding speaker cabinets, but decided that would be a lot of work and might still yield questionable results. Two-ways potentially supported by a sub(s) seem to suit my needs best while I'm in Taiwan.

JLM · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Jul 2016, 10:04 pm »

I've owned 8 inch full range driver based single driver speakers and have heard many with smaller drivers (nearly all of which are great for small acoustic ensembles). Have yet to hear the Eikona (they just now being imported to the U.S.) but hope to soon.

My favorite 2-way stand-mount was a Sonus Faber Extrema ($70,000/pair) that sounded close to the above speakers that I own (with less bass

). Another favorite is the Fritz Carbon 7 (I like the 6 inch plus mid/woofer for the midrange body it can provide.) They thrived with large capacitance amps (again like my speakers) and really push the value quotient. So I'd start by looking for kits that use a similar recipe (drivers, cabinet, crossover).

rajacat · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Jul 2016, 10:16 pm »

You could get a pair of these for $200 and build the boxes in Taiwan. There's a Jeff Bagby designed 8" version that goes for $332. They get excellent reviews. Also they could be easily tweaked with better c/o parts and No Rez.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-6/fusion6-kit.html

S Clark · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Jul 2016, 11:10 pm »

Years ago I had Madisound "design" a crossover for an 8" two way made from drivers they sold. I was very disappointed. At the time, I didn't know enough to realize that they did a simple program crossover with no attempt to account for the box. No baffle step compensation, no ability to consider phase interactions... it was a joke and a waste of $$.
My recommendation is to buy a kit from a pro, or build a well documented design with a history of success. Danny Richie has some great deals on kits, Dennis Murphy (now of Salk) has several excellent designs at Murphyblaster.com, as mentioned Jeff Bagby is talented. Zaph's site has good info, but I wouldn't say he's a top designer. Rick Craig is very talented (but if you are interested in his stuff, PM me) and I think may offer a kit option or at least crossover design.
Single driver speakers can be simple and do some things really well, but I think they are severly limited. Full range guys disagree- JLM, Fullrangeman, and others love their fullrange speaker- I don't.
There is a long list of options for you that don't include designs from supply houses trying to sell driver, or ambitious amateurs. Shoot, I'll sell you a design for a beer, and I've built, designed, and measured probably 50 crossovers- and they aren't bad, but they aren't great either.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Jul 2016, 11:16 pm »

Quote from: mresseguie on 2 Jul 2016, 07:33 pm

My current plan is to have the following components:

Nuprime ST-10 amp
Gustard X20u DAC
Don Sachs SP14 preamp (or I save money by using my AVA T8 preamp)
TWL PC, RCA interconnects, and PCs
P.I. Audio DigiBUSS, MiniBUSS

Later on, I'll probably buy a Taiwanese built EL34 tube amp that I auditioned earlier this year. It was so good, I almost cried when I had to return it.

the thing about speaker kits like the Bitfrost, they do require decent current, that seems to be the case with any sort of small speaker that attempts to swing as well as a largish speaker.

While the Bitfrost will be suited with a powerful amp such as the 150 watter you have there, a speaker that is suited with a smaller tubed amplifier is a very different beast.

I remember fondly running a pair of Epos ES11s with lowish sensitivity but having flat impedance with a 20 watter Shigaraki integrated back in 2004-5. The same speaker sounded strained with a more powerful amp like the McCormack DNA225 that I used to own.

It is difficult to have a speaker that does will be synergistic with all sort of amplification. Bob Brines designs that I own are mostly efficient, they can be run with both tubes, lowest was a 15 watter based on a F2A tubes, a German version of 300B, as well as a plethora of other type of amplifiers but they never needed more than 90 watts. In fact the same speakers that I share with JLM here, the FTA-2000s with a massive 8" driver are the only ones that I feel can absorb large amounts of power without getting distorted and at the same time, are very very happy just being driven with a 40-50 op chip amp like the Peter Daniels Patek SE amp I have. Right now, these are doing duties as AV speakers being driven with a large Marantz HT receiver that runs pretty warm and puts out about 110 watts per channel, no Class D or anything like that here.

My take is that if you are fixated with a set of speakers, I would go for them instead of attempting to satisfy my curiosity with other, more affordable offerings.

Bitfrost material components are pretty much top of the top, the speakers in the DIYSoundgroup website have incredible value but ultimately, you will always ask yourself what would something like the Bitfrost would have sounded like.

It is the nature of the beast in terms of audio. I have done lots of lateral moves but in terms of speakers and amplification, you need to upgrade vertically, there is no cutting it....In the longer run, this is the smarter money wise move than the other way around.

A good example of this would be driving a nice 4 cylinder Japanese compactt...it will get you from point A to point B but if you were always eyeing a Ford Mustang GT-500, it is a totally different game. You will never know what something is like unless you go for it.

Whatever you do, enjoy your system. It seems that all the pieces are quite decent in quality.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Jul 2016, 11:19 pm »

Quote from: S Clark on 2 Jul 2016, 11:10 pm

Years ago I had Madisound "design" a crossover for an 8" two way made from drivers they sold. I was very disappointed. At the time, I didn't know enough to realize that they did a simple program crossover with no attempt to account for the box. No baffle step compensation, no ability to consider phase interactions... it was a joke and a waste of $$.
My recommendation is to buy a kit from a pro, or build a well documented design with a history of success. Danny Richie has some great deals on kits, Dennis Murphy (now of Salk) has several excellent designs at Murphyblaster.com, as mentioned Jeff Bagby is talented. Zaph's site has good info, but I wouldn't say he's a top designer. Rick Craig is very talented (but if you are interested in his stuff, PM me) and I think may offer a kit option or at least crossover design.
Single driver speakers can be simple and do some things really well, but I think they are severly limited. Full range guys disagree- JLM, Fullrangeman, and others love their fullrange speaker- I don't.
There is a long list of options for you that don't include designs from supply houses trying to sell driver, or ambitious amateurs. Shoot, I'll sell you a design for a beer, and I've built, designed, and measured probably 50 crossovers- and they aren't bad, but they aren't great either.

I think the Bitfrost are not Madisound designs. They are originally Seas designs. If you look at the box optimization, what they have and what is available around the internet, they are very very different. The Madisound box that is shown is quite compact while the SEAS design seems to be a compact tower, which makes me remember the NorthCreek audio designs from the early 2000s.

S Clark · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Jul 2016, 12:13 am »

I saw a Bitfrost from Taylor Speakers, if those are the ones you're looking at... looks like a very good value; especially with cabinet pieces included. Have you ever heard them?

JLM · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Jul 2016, 11:36 am »

If you're after the "best" compact 2-way designs:

1.) What's your budget?

2.) How much DIY can you do?

3.) You simply must audition them (very hard to audition most kits).

4.) If raw drivers and completed cabinets save you the import fees why not buy a completed speaker and pull the drivers out before entering the country?

5.) Will these stay in Taiwan or travel back and forth? (Don't recommend excessive travel and the import fees would only be saved the first time.)

6.) From my single driver ways I highly recommend looking at active speakers. IMO no "best" compact 2-way consideration would be complete without considering active design. They can be way more dynamic, offer flatter frequency response (a revelation in itself), and provide gobsmacking amounts of quality bass (deep and full). Look into ATC or PMC as a good start for audiophile use ($4000/pair and up), but even the small $300/pair JBL LSR305 more than holds it's own in terms of sound quality against similarly sized/priced passives.

roscoe65 · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Jul 2016, 01:11 pm »

It doesn't sound like OP is looking for active speakers, especially considering that he would like to go back to a tube amp. Active speaker also severely limit future system configuration changes.

I would very strongly recommend that you look to one of Danny's GR Research kits and have cabinets built locally. They are very high value, very high performance, and you would have to spend a lot more money to get significantly better performance. I own a pair of the XLS Encores in one of my systems and they are very satisfying. They need about 25 watts of tube power or more, but are a great all-around speaker. They can be made into a stand-mount or floor-stander. The basic kit is $169, but with all options (Sonicaps, Mills resistors, Tube Connectors, No Rez) the kit price is about $400 plus cabinets.

It will be much cheaper to buy cabinets locally than to have them shipped. For reference, a pair of Parts Express prefabricated cabinets will run about $300 a pair. And forget about packing a flat pack in your luggage: a pair of MDF speaker kits will add about 50 pounds to your luggage. You'll spend more money on baggage fees.

mresseguie · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Jul 2016, 03:15 pm »

Hi, gang.

Wow. There have been great thoughts and suggestions - including the PMs.

Some of you may recall I had originally built cabinets for my Adelphos monitors using pre-finished plywood. The cabinets were braced and I added NoRez which compensated for the plywood's poor density. Unfortunately, the exterior build quality was so amateurish that I found myself repeatedly apologizing to fellow audiophiles for how ugly they looked. Soon after, I discovered an AC member who's got years of experience building speaker cabinets. For a very reasonable price, he built me a pair of beautifully veneered cabinets. I have already contacted him about building me another pair. I have tentatively settled on Maple Burl as my veneer of first choice, but there are a couple other burls that keep grabbing my attention. TO BE DETERMINED.

I will buy inexpensive polycarbonate suitcases to hold the speakers. I will wrap each speaker in a waterproof liner - a baggie if you will. Then, I will wrap each in a 'sleeping bag' of dense 2" or 3" closed cell foam that will protect the cabinets from aggressive baggage handlers. There will still be some space inside the suitcase, so I will add a layer of something else (foam, wood, etc.) to further protect the contents. Then, I will add shirts, socks, whatever clothing into any remaining spaces. Each suitcase will be wrapped in a wide nylon strap to ensure it doesn't accidentally open in transit. The drivers will not be mounted in the cabinets. They will be in their original shipping boxes in another piece of luggage.

There is a 'foam guy' in my home town who has sold foam for a couple decades. He will cut and shape the foam products to help ensure a glove like fit. He and I have already strategized how to best wrap each cabinet with which materials. It's surprisingly inexpensive btw. I've also got a Gustard X20u DAC that I'm taking to Taiwan. It will have its own suitcase and appropriate wrapping. If I buy the SP14, it, too, will have its own suitcase.

We fly deluxe economy for the greater legroom, better food, and more luggage capacity. [I stand 6'1"; economy seating kills me.] This allows us up to 50 pounds per piece of luggage. This is a 13-hour flight plus a 2 1/2-hour flight from PDX to SF or LAX plus 90-minute drive from our home to PDX. That's a helluva lot of time in transit.

Further, because this isn't my first trip to Taiwan (and we own a home there), most of my clothing that I need on a daily basis is already there. My luggage will have very little clothing inside. I gotta fill my luggage somehow, no?

Whew! This post is the first in a couple. By all means critique my plans to transport the cabinets in my luggage. If you think my wrapping materials or methods are lacking or insufficient, suggest a better alternative! You will not hurt my feelings.

Michael

richidoo · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Jul 2016, 07:48 pm »

Lenahan speakers out of Australia once/still ships their small ML1 speakers overseas in heavy duty plastic travel cases as you propose. It worked well.

Maple Burl will be beautiful on a small speaker. I like simpler wood grain patterns for larger cabinets, but a small speaker is like a jewelry box so doll it up! My kairos are still raw BB ply,

mresseguie · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Jul 2016, 09:19 pm »

This search for 'to die for' speakers is pushing me to the edge of sanity.

I rush around fantasizing about this or that speaker; get within inches of committing to design 'A' only to see some new eye candy and rush off in a new direction.

Does this never end?

AAaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

Heh heh. I just told my wife about my desire to get new speakers. She didn't say no.....

JLM · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Jul 2016, 10:31 pm »

Michael,

If you're looking for "best" 2-way compact designs, why bother with all this packing, dealing with unknown kits, and trying to save a comparative trifling amount of import fees? What does "best" mean to you? Again what is your budget? Can you give examples of comparable assembled speakers you'd be interested in?

Doublej · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Jul 2016, 10:43 pm »

I believe Usher Audio speakers are made in Taiwan. I wonder if you can purchase a pair in Taiwan for a good price and bypass all of the associated import taxes and fees.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Jul 2016, 11:26 pm »

Michael,
I seem to recall that you found someone in Taiwan that built speakers you like?

Evan

mresseguie · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Jul 2016, 12:40 am »

Quote from: ACHiPo on 3 Jul 2016, 11:26 pm

Michael,
I seem to recall that you found someone in Taiwan that built speakers you like?
Evan

There is a manufacturer in Taiwan that I like. Unfortunately, I'm pretty unhappy with how his speakers look. If I were blind, or could get over their looks, I might be pretty happy with his speakers. There is a DIY shop that will make speakers - similar to Madisound, but prices are high. For instance, cabinet for Adelphos sized speakers would cost about $1300 USD. That just for cabinets. I know a guy who owns a table saw, a router, and braces who is willing to let me cut and glue MDF or BB plywood, but neither he nor I knows anything about veneering.

Quote from: Doublej on 3 Jul 2016, 10:43 pm

I believe Usher Audio speakers are made in Taiwan. I wonder if you can purchase a pair in Taiwan for a good price and bypass all of the associated import taxes and fees.

True. Usher speakers are manufactured there. So long as I have them delivered to my home in Taiwan, I could get Usher speakers for 2/5 their cost in the US. I did audition two pairs, but I wasn't impressed enough to want to buy them.

Quote from: JLM on 3 Jul 2016, 10:31 pm

Michael,

If you're looking for "best" 2-way compact designs, why bother with all this packing, dealing with unknown kits, and trying to save a comparative trifling amount of import fees? What does "best" mean to you? Again what is your budget? Can you give examples of comparable assembled speakers you'd be interested in?

My apologies, JLM. I didn't notice your budget question the first time. Why go to all this trouble? Because I love how really good kits can give me such excellent sound for so little money as compared to brick & mortar shops. I'm a tight wad with my money. Paying an extra few hundred Dollars in import duties bothers me. Okay?

My budget is what I decide to spend. For a kit, under $3000 is what I've been limiting myself to. However, there is a pair of speakers for sale here for which I have made an offer that sell for more than $3000 and are larger than what I've been chatting about. This is my fantasy and I get to play it however I desire (so long as my wife doesn't smack me down!).

Happy Fourth!

Michael