[Tranche]

First post from Eastern Pennsylvania.   I have an AES preamp and AES-25 P/P KT-88 power amp that are in search of a pair of high-quality single-driver speakers.  I want coherent, liquid midrange and pinpoint imaging.  Bass extension from the main speakers is less important than a natural and beautiful midrange. My sources are Macintosh FLAC and ALAC files fed to a Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC.

I've been a tube and mini-monitor buff since 1992.  For the last year I've been listening to an APPJ N3 and near-field Fostex Kanspea/FF105WK speakers.  I find the coherent, single-ended, single-driver sound genuinely pleasing.  I much prefer it to to the Vienna Mozart towers in my main system.

I listen to acoustic music almost exclusively, with a special affection for female vocals such as June Tabor, Holly Cole, and Norah Jones.   I also like Appalachian folk music with Dock Boggs, Clarence Ashley, and Jean Ritchie standing as examples.  For instrumental music, I like a variety of soloists or small ensembles:  Jordi Savall, Zoe Keating, Bela Fleck and the like.  I rarely listen to heavy rock or symphonic music.

My listening room is 23.5ft x 13.5ft (7.2m x 4.1m.)The speakers will be centered near the skinny end of the room about 8 feet apart on appropriate stands. Listening position is about 11 feet away from the speakers.

Given that precise imaging and beautiful, natural midrange are paramount, should I use 3i monitors with a sub or Super 7 MK2 monitors? 

Are there other models I should consider?  I’m leery of floor-standing speakers, but I’m willing to consider them.

[seikosha]

Welcome to the forum Tranche.  I've actually got some of those Kanspea FF105WK speakers and I can tell you, that if you like those and the single driver sound, you'll love Omega.  The Omega drivers take everything to a higher level.  While I haven't heard the Super 7 monitors, I do own, Super 3XRS's, Desktops and Alnico Monitors.  I love them all. 

Given the size of your room, I'd tend to recommend the Super 7's as it's a bigger driver and will mover more air, but that said, if you are happy with the Kanspeas, then the 3's will work great as well and the smaller driver may provide better pinpoint imaging which is something you are looking for.  Perhaps someone who owns models from both the 3 and 7 series will chime in.

Good luck. 

[Tranche]

Thanks for the reply, Seikosha.  It was the little Kanspeas that made a believer out of me.      They're so much more liquid and musical than my loud and and lush Vienna Acoustics Mozarts.  You got at the essence of my question exactly.  First, I'm concerned that the 3i monitors may not be enough for the large room (though the listening position is only 11 feet from the speakers).  Second, I'm wondering if I lose anything in midrange coherence by going with the Super 7 Mk 2 or Alnicos rather than with the 3i monitors and a sub. 

Thanks again for your response!

[seikosha]

Hi Tranche,

I can only speak to the models I have, I really don't like making comments about things I haven't heard.  Going from the the RS5 to the Alnico, is very much a change.  You'll see it mentioned over and over here that the Alnico provides a texture to the notes that the RS5 doesn't convey.  Really, it just sounds like all of the sudden, there is more information being provided with every note.  It's very intoxicating.  Also, the Alnico, being in a bigger box with a bigger driver does go lower and naturally sounds like a bigger speaker.

The RS5's strength is that it conveys speed very well.  It's strength over the Alnico might be that it's just a little bit more coherent from top to bottom.  At times, the Alnico can emphasize a very very slight and narrow peak in the treble.  Perhaps this is an artifact of the whizzer cone?  It's not there very often, for example, you can listen for hours and never hear it, but then it'll pop up in one song and you'll think...that's not there with the RS5.  Is it the actual Alnico driver or is that driver just telling you what's on the recording....that I can't say.  Again, you could listen for weeks and never notice it or maybe not...depends on the quality of your source material.  Compared to conventional speakers, both are an order of magnitude more coherent.

I'm guessing that adding a sub to the RS5 will not give you the texture that you get with the Alnico, but I'm sure you'll get gains in the usual areas when you add a sub.  Honestly, you can't go wrong with either and as I said, if you like what that Kanspea is doing, you'll be VERY happy after you hear the Omegas.

 

[Canada Rob]

Hello Tranche, and welcome to the Omega AudioCircle. 

Looking at what you like in the way of music and what you want from a speaker, the Super 3i would be an excellent choice.  Omega deepOmega 8, SVS SB-1000, HSU VTF-1 MK2, would all be good choices for a sub if you need one, but I would try without first.  Currently my Super 3i's are running without sub just fine. 

I would also look at one of Louis' OutLaw 1.5 customs.  This speaker is in the same cabinet as the 7MK2, but will be faster, more transparent and with as much if not more ability in the bottom end.  http://omegaloudspeakers.com/omegaoutlawsupe1.html

[DaveC113]

11 ft away from a single driver speaker is a lot imo... I'd go with one of the larger drivers and still I'd recommend trying out a closer listening distance. This will also give you better imaging and a more 3-D soundstage.

[seikosha]

Agree with DaveC about the listening positioning.  I bet if you moved about 2 - 2.5 feet closer to your speakers, you'd get a better soundstage with a more 3d like presentation.

[Canada Rob]

+3 

I'd still stick with an RS5 based speaker though.  I've had Super 3i's in a big space with no negative issues.  They were about 11 feet apart and about 10 feet from my ears with no imaging issues other than soundstage could have been a little deeper.  In this setup I only had an Audio Engine N22 in front of them.  I think a nice SET would have deepened the soundstage or moving the speakers out further into the room.  Bass was adequate, and sometimes I ran a sub and sometimes not.  Was this the best room setup?  No, but for a system that had to integrate with the other decor, it worked well.

See picture.

[DaveC113]

+2 

I'd still stick with an RS5 based speaker though.  I've had Super 3i's in a big space with no negative issues.  They were about 11 feet apart and about 10 feet from my ears with no imaging issues other than soundstage could have been a little deeper.  In this setup I only had an Audio Engine N22 in front of them.  I think a nice SET would have deepened the soundstage.  Bass was adequate, and sometimes I ran a sub and sometimes not.  See picture.

Too much reflected sound kills the soundstage and makes it 2 dimensional. This is why nearfield can work so well, more direct vs reflected sound... and given the SPL limits of single drivers they don't have to work as hard for the same SPL at the listening position. With the RS5 speakers I'd want to be about 6 ft away or maybe even closer but not over 8 ft away.

Also, you really don't want your listening position to be near any room boundaries, this can also kill soundstage.

[Tranche]

Dave, thanks for the thoughts on listening distance and direct vs reflected sound.  That's quite helpful.    It would be possible to lessen the listening distance without clashing with the other requirements for the room.  So, thank you for that, and thanks Seikosha for the +2!   

Rob, thank you for suggesting the RS5.  Thanks also to those who favor the RS7. Choosing between the RS5 and RS7 gets to the heart of my question. I've heard such good things about the RS5's imaging.   I can easily move the speakers out 30 inches from the wall while leaving the listening position in its current spot. That would take care of the listening distance problem and likely help with soundstage depth as well.   So that's a win-win. 

There's money in the budget and also a nice spot for a sub between the speakers.  I'm not an all-out thunderous-bass hound, but I do love to hear tight and tuneful bass from a double bass, for example. 

Thanks again for your responses.

[Sense63]

PM sent.

[Tranche]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the compact alnico monitor or SAM in this application?   Again, this is for girl-with-guitar, Appalachian folk music, and chamber/jazz/folk ensembles.   Thanks again for all the thoughtful answers.

Ken

[Bigtom]

I can't comment on the room size, my room is square 10' x 10' I have the back of my sam's about 14" from the back wall, my ears are about 6' from the speakers and they sound fantastic. I can only imagine that if I had a bigger space they would fill the room with great sound no problem.

[Tranche]

Thanks, Tom.   I appreciate the insight.   Mine will be 30" from the wall and perhaps 8' from the sofa.

[Bigtom]

I think you should consider the alnico's also... if you don't you will always wonder about them. Mind you i have not listened to any of the other models and i value canada rob's knowledge and insight so his suggestion might be the best in you situation.

[pstrisik]

Tranche,

I had the original Super 7XRS and had both ferrite and alnico drivers.  I have similar taste - jazz, folk, classic rock, classical.  I preferred the alnico, no contest.  I traded in for Alnico Monitors.  Really a step up.  As stated:  just smooth top to bottom and with great "texture" for things like breath, guitar strings, throaty sax.  Of course, great for everything but those kind of things make it really stand out.  Voices... Janis Joplin Little Girl Blue brought me to tears.  Imaging is the best I've had, though I've not had any of the smaller drivers. 

Room is ~4500cf.  Not small.

.......Peter

[RDavidson]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the compact alnico monitor or SAM in this application?   Again, this is for girl-with-guitar, Appalachian folk music, and chamber/jazz/folk ensembles.   Thanks again for all the thoughtful answers.

Ken

I've owned the 3xrs and now own CAMs (Compact Alnico Monitors). I liked the 3xrs VERY much. I'm still fond of them and may consider them again for another system some day. Their speed, imaging, and resolution is truly amazing. With that said, I feel a sub is necessary with the 3xrs to fill out the lower midrange a bit more as well as bass. Not all RS5 owners feel this way, and of course our systems and rooms are different. Integrating a sub can be difficult in some situations too and can add another level of complexity. Now to the CAMs. LOVE them! They give up a slight bit of speed (compared to the RS5 - no real surprise due, in part, to the difference in moving mass), BUT they make up for this by having a fuller midbass and much more/better bass. Top to bottom they just have such a natural and refined presentation. The CAMs, in my experience, can more easily stand on their own without a sub too, which is how I've been using them. I was very surprised by this. I was expecting/ planning to use a sub, but in my system/room don't really feel the need to. So, the CAMs have allowed me to simplify my system...which to me, is a good thing. My feeling is that much of what has been said about the larger SAMs, likely applies to the CAMs. I can easily see where maybe one may choose CAMs for a smaller and/or more nearfield listening space and SAMs for larger rooms. Or one might choose CAMs just for the versatility and sometimes more "precise" sound that small monitors can exhibit.

[Guy 13]

A warm welcome to AudioCircle Mr. Tranche

Guy 13

[Tranche]

Thanks, Tom and Guy.

Thanks, RDavidson for your hands-on account of the CAMs and the things that distinguish them from the 3XRS.  That's quite helpful in my particular application.

Peter, thanks very much for recounting your experience with the Alnicos in a large room.  Texture for things like breath is exactly the thing that rings my bell, so your experience with Little Girl Blue is right where I'm aiming.  I really love hearing the little nuances of breath and quiet labiodontal sounds that lie deep within vocals, so thanks much for noting them.

[pstrisik]

Thanks, Tom and Guy.

Thanks, RDavidson for your hands-on account of the CAMs and the things that distinguish them from the 3XRS.  That's quite helpful in my particular application.

Peter, thanks very much for recounting your experience with the Alnicos in a large room.  Texture for things like breath is exactly the thing that rings my bell, so your experience with Little Girl Blue is right where I'm aiming.  I really love hearing the little nuances of breath and quiet labiodontal sounds that lie deep within vocals, so thanks much for noting them.

You bet!  Sounds like SAMs or CAMs might be in your future  .  There is also the Alnico XRS.  Report is that they give a bit more lower end freq response but in trade for a slight reduction in imaging.  I couldn't make a valid comparison since my shift from the XRS to monitors also had the confounding variable of changing drivers from 7" to 6.5".  The quality of the 6.5" alnico in the SAMs is clearly a step above the 7" alnico I first had as well.  I like the monitors for ease of moving/packing and my back thanks them!  I am not wondering if I might have better imaging if I went to the smaller cabinet from the XRS.  And it fit my plans for a speaker system in which I have solid response to below 20Hz and didn't need the extra extension from the bigger cabinet. 

(My thread on the project:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134489.msg1517616#msg1517616)


........Pete