Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?

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Rod_S

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As the title asks I'm curious if people have noticed audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files? With high res PCM files now available up to 352/24 at what point do the numbers cease to mean anything? I'm currently limited to 96/24 on the digital input of my SSP however there are some albums I'm interested in that are in both 96/24 and 192/24 but since I can't actually listen to 192/24 I've been putting off purchasing the albums. Am I making a mistake thinking there will be differences is audible quality and I should just get the 96/24 version or am I right to hold off until I eventually upgrade my SSP and can get the 192/24 files?

My SSP only has unbalanced inputs and I have no interest in say purchasing an external DAC like the BDA3 only to feed my SSP an unbalanced signal. If I ever go to an external DAC it would only be when I can use balanced inputs into a future SSP.

restrav

Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #1 on: 30 May 2016, 12:30 am »
im in the weird situation where my hi rez 192 and 176.4 and 96khz downloads sound worse than my red book, im blaming my DAC and am trying to find something that works for me.

Rod_S

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #2 on: 30 May 2016, 12:31 am »
hmm, very interesting, what was the source for your hi res files, HDTracks, etc.?

restrav

Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #3 on: 30 May 2016, 12:38 am »
hmm, very interesting, what was the source for your hi res files, HDTracks, etc.?

i have 3 albums from HDtracks, 4 classical albums from  2L.no and a couplle of rock albums from torrent which are 96khz

Yitshak

Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #4 on: 30 May 2016, 04:36 am »
im in the weird situation where my hi rez 192 and 176.4 and 96khz downloads sound worse than my red book, im blaming my DAC and am trying to find something that works for me.

Sometimes Hi Rez files does sound bad compare to the same version of 44.1/16.

In can blame in part sometimes on equipment in the user setup
But sometimes it's just a mix that was made and remastered.

I don't see any point going to an older mix and sampling it (not upsampling) for higher
Bit if the Mix was not done top notch to begin with.

Any crap that was on the mix will get marked on hearing just clearer.

Also remastering is not always enough if the mix wasn't properly done right,
As remastering in such case will get done on a poor raw material.

Remastering can't put back what was taken in the Mix.

When we buy Hi Rez file We don't know for sure what was the case to start with,
so it's a kind of gamble on our side.

When mix done right it will play great as 44.1/16 and much better noticbly on on higher bit rate!

Any way that's what I get so far,it's all mostly start with the first- The Mix!!

Itshak

Anonamemouse

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #5 on: 30 May 2016, 06:48 am »
There is only one way to test this.

Take a hi-res file (24/192) and make various copies in various lower resolutions. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT use different versions from different sources as you don't know what happened durng the different masterings.

The human ear is not good enough to hear the differences between 24/88.2 and anything over that. Any perceived difference comes from variations in mastering, not in file resolution. People claiming the DSD file sounds soooooo much better only "hear" the difference because they know it is DSD. In a blind test they will not be able to hear the difference between DSD and 24/88.2 if the 24/88.2 file was downgraded from the DSD file.

If the same music in various resolutions come from different sources YOU CAN NOT compare. You might just as well compare Barbra Streisant to Slayer...

Anonamemouse

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #6 on: 30 May 2016, 06:51 am »
im in the weird situation where my hi rez 192 and 176.4 and 96khz downloads sound worse than my red book, im blaming my DAC and am trying to find something that works for me.
For an affordable DAC consider the Schiit DAC. It's amazing... I for one regret all the time I waited to buy it while researching the various DAC's available.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #7 on: 30 May 2016, 07:08 am »
24/192 is good but it yet sound as hifi, while DSD64 sound as music being played just now IMO.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #8 on: 30 May 2016, 11:52 am »
As the title asks I'm curious if people have noticed audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?


Nope. I can't tell. Save your money imo.   :thumb:

R. Daneel

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #9 on: 30 May 2016, 12:46 pm »
As the title asks I'm curious if people have noticed audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files? With high res PCM files now available up to 352/24 at what point do the numbers cease to mean anything? I'm currently limited to 96/24 on the digital input of my SSP however there are some albums I'm interested in that are in both 96/24 and 192/24 but since I can't actually listen to 192/24 I've been putting off purchasing the albums. Am I making a mistake thinking there will be differences is audible quality and I should just get the 96/24 version or am I right to hold off until I eventually upgrade my SSP and can get the 192/24 files?

My SSP only has unbalanced inputs and I have no interest in say purchasing an external DAC like the BDA3 only to feed my SSP an unbalanced signal. If I ever go to an external DAC it would only be when I can use balanced inputs into a future SSP.

Hi!

I've been researching this for several years now and in the end came to a conclusion that for all intents and purposes, these two sampling rates "sound" the same.

There cannot possibly be any difference since 96 kHz in the audio band translates to a frequency that's a little bit lower than 48 kHz. These frequencies carry no information. No musical instrument emmits tones at these frequencies. Apart from some ceramic or beryllium alloy, no transduecer will reproduce these frequencies faithfully or with any accuracy.

Many audio engineers believe anything above 96 kHz has no practical benefits.

Recordings at sampling rates of 192 kHz or higher are said to increase D/A conversion accuracy. But even if accuracy is increased, we are talking about levels which are 100 or more dB below the actual musical signal. It is therefore more quiet than the actual transducer distortion or even hiss of the analogue circuitry within the D/A converter or elsewhere.

The biggest favour the music industry could do us if they started caring about how they record the music -- whether the microphone is at the right distance and at the right angle when recording an acoustic guitar, how much effects processing to use or to use it at all -- that's the stuff they should care about,

The sad truth is, good equipment in studios is rarely there to make the thing sound good but rather to make it sound acceptable DESPITE the often less-than-competent recording crews, as a part of their responsibility towards the client. That's the hard truth.

WHat I have found is that the best recordings I have are my own recordings of an orchestra I used to play in. I Know how these instruments sound in open space, in large or small auditoriums and in an acourstically treated rooms like redorcding studios. If I tell you all of these were made with Alesis ADAT machines in 16 bit and at 44.1 kHz sampling, then I think it proves my point more than well.

As for analogue transfers, a single mistake on the part of technician who mis-calibrated the reel-to-reel deck, so that it wasn't in sync with the exact spect it was operating under when the tape was first made, WILL destroy all efforts thereafter to make the digital copy as faithful to the original magnetic tape.

So, to conclude, in some cases 96 kHz will bring benefits to the listener over the lower sampling rates, presuming we are talking about qualified engineering/producer crew, in others it will not. Sampling at 192 kHz won't make a difference won't bring any benefits to the listener in any case.

Cheers!
Antun


Speedskater

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #10 on: 30 May 2016, 01:03 pm »
There is only one way to test this.

Take a hi-res file (24/192) and make various copies in various lower resolutions. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT use different versions from different sources as you don't know what happened during the different masterings.
....................................... .....
And then convert them all back to the original resolution. There are too many uncontrolled variables when listening to playbacks at different resolutions.

James Tanner

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #11 on: 30 May 2016, 01:08 pm »
One thing I will point out folks is as DAC's have improved to allow for much higher sampling frequencies their basic performance at the standard 44.1/16 does show improvement.

So it could be argued that even if you agree that higher resolution is not required for better performance there could be an case made in favour of better performance at the more typical lower resolutions  :duh:

james

R. Daneel

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #12 on: 30 May 2016, 01:30 pm »
One thing I will point out folks is as DAC's have improved to allow for much higher sampling frequencies their basic performance at the standard 44.1/16 does show improvement.

So it could be argued that even if you agree that higher resolution is not required for better performance there could be an case made in favour of better performance at the more typical lower resolutions  :duh:

james

Hi James!

Good point!

But you will also agree that DACs don't benefit as much from their D/A chip specs as much as they benefit from a clean power supply and advanced analogue circuits. Yet, features like these are mentioned only after the maximum sampling rate and sometimes aren't mentioned at all.

Cheers!
Antun

James Tanner

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #13 on: 30 May 2016, 01:37 pm »
Hi James!

Good point!

But you will also agree that DACs don't benefit as much from their D/A chip specs as much as they benefit from a clean power supply and advanced analogue circuits. Yet, features like these are mentioned only after the maximum sampling rate and sometimes aren't mentioned at all.

Cheers!
Antun

Hi Antun

Totally agree and that's what Bryston DACs are all about - a quality DAC is just the start point.

James

R. Daneel

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #14 on: 30 May 2016, 01:39 pm »
And then convert them all back to the original resolution. There are too many uncontrolled variables when listening to playbacks at different resolutions.

I completely disagree. That test would be flawed from the start as it includes bit-reallocation algorhytm to remove or even move the bits to different time-points. Technically sound test would be to do an analogue transfer to digital at desired sampling frequencies and then try to distinguish a an audible difference between them.

R. Daneel

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #15 on: 30 May 2016, 01:40 pm »
Hi Antun

Totally agree and that's what Bryston DACs are all about - a quality DAC is just the start point.

James

Indeed they are James! That's why I have one!

Cheers!
Antun

Rod_S

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #16 on: 30 May 2016, 04:23 pm »

If the same music in various resolutions come from different sources YOU CAN NOT compare. You might just as well compare Barbra Streisant to Slayer...

Funny you should mention Slayer, that's one of the artists I was looking at as Slayer, along with the David Lee Roth Van Halen albums and a couple Megadeth albums are offered in both 96/24 and 192/24

Rod_S

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #17 on: 30 May 2016, 08:28 pm »
So it would seem the consensus is going above 96 probably isn't going to provide any real world benefits I guess in audible fidelity.

Armaegis

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #18 on: 30 May 2016, 08:44 pm »
From a very grossly oversimplified viewpoint, when we consider not the mythical content above 48k but rather the math and filtering and assorted voodoo that goes on to translate digital data to analog, the calculations get a little better at 96k, and debatably a bit worse going higher. It's like having an extra page to show your math homework. You've got space to spread out your work and keep things organized. But what if you've got 4 extra pages and you're penalized for having leftover blanks? Well now you've spread it out too thin and it actually becomes harder to follow. Maybe it's ok for some very very specific problems that you signed up for because you're a masochist like that, but 99% of your questions are standardized at a particular difficulty level anyways =P

25x

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Re: Audible differences between 96/24 and 192/24 high res files?
« Reply #19 on: 30 May 2016, 10:43 pm »
If someone wants to check out differences between 44.1 and several high res files, you can download a lot of free test samples at http://www.2l.no/hires/
All resolutions are based on the same recordings so you really could check out if you can hear differences, or if your stereo setup is able showing differences.