Tubed DAC/CDP or not?

woodsyi · « **on:** 4 Nov 2004, 05:09 pm »

I am assuming that tubed output from a digital source has potential to add warmth and smoothness to music. My question is, "would it be too much of tubes if you already have a tubed linestage?" Right now I am using Sony XA777es as a CDP but I am looking for a bit more "warmth" without sacrificing details (maybe a little).

byteme · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 05:43 pm »

I'd say it would depend a lot on the linestage and dac/cdp. Some are tubier than others. My Nixon I wouldn't describe as tubey, nor would I describe the Ultraverve as tubey in that neither unrealistically pushes up the mids. I do think both, however, add to the realism and emotion conveyed by the entire system.

shokunin · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 06:04 pm »

IMO, the XA777es is on the warm side. If you add a tube DAC, you'll be able tube roll with to get the best combination you're looking for.

woodsyi · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 06:08 pm »

Byteme,

I was browsing when I came across this http://www.audioconnect.com/html/x-10_v3.html which got me to think about adding it to my CDP which triggered the original question.

LADII is a very musical and neutral linestage and I like the sound I get from my analog set up, which includes a tube phono stage. So I guess I just answered myself -- I will look at tubed CDP as well as SS ones.

Thanks.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 06:17 pm »

woodsyi,

My personal opinion is to keep the source as neutral as possible and add "warmth" (character, color, whatever you want to call it) later in the system. If you have a tubed linestage, have you tried trying other tubes to achieve the warmth you're looking for?

woodsyi · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 06:19 pm »

shokunin,

Are you saying XA777es is a "warm" transport that matchs well with a tubed DAC? Or are you saying XA777es as a CDP is already on the warm side, which would suggest that a different transport/DAC combo will almost have to be tubed to get more warmth?

jswallac · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 06:20 pm »

Unless the X-10 v3 is a significant improvement over the older X-10D, I would be hesitant to add it to the chain. Pretty much the overwhelming opinion on the X-10D is that it provided an improvement if your source was low-end, but provided marginal improvement at best, or perhaps detracting from the overall presentation of better sources. Since you are using a Sony XA777es and not a Sony Discman, I suspect the X-10 will not take you very far toward sonic nirvana.

Levi · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 07:04 pm »

I remembered a friend who witnessed a stock broker who could not make up his mind if he likes the Halcro amp or the Bryston amp. The guy ended up purchasing both. Must be nice

Jon L · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 07:09 pm »

Even several years ago, I would have said go with tubed CDP/DAC unless you were willing to spend BIG money for a nice SS CDP. Back then, the reasonably-priced SS CDP's just had a much harder time coming up with that indefinable warmth/texture/bloom of tubed units.

However, in the year 2004 going on 2005, reasonably-priced solid-state CDP's have come a long way, and with careful audition, one can easily find one that has nice warmth with bloom with all the detail you need. Having said that, I personally probably would still choose a well-designed tubed CDP over SS at a given price point, but it's no longer a no-brainer. At much higher price points, tubed vs. SS digital really is a matter of personal taste..

byteme · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 07:16 pm »

Quote from: jswallac

Unless the X-10 v3 is a significant improvement over the older X-10D, I would be hesitant to add it to the chain. Pretty much the overwhelming opinion on the X-10D is that it provided an improvement if your source was low-end, but provided marginal improvement at best, or perhaps detracting from the overall presentation of better sources. Since you are using a Sony XA777es and not a Sony Discman, I suspect the X-10 will not take you very far toward sonic nirvana.

Agreed. I'd avoid that and look at a tubed dac rather.

shokunin · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 07:20 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi

shokunin,

Are you saying XA777es is a "warm" transport that matchs well with a tubed DAC? Or are you saying XA777es as a CDP is already on the warm side, which would suggest that a different transport/DAC combo will almost have to be tubed to get more warmth?

Woodsyi,

IMO, the XA777es as a CDP is on the warm side, but not as warm as what can be done with a nice set of tubes. As a transport it's excellent and neutral. If you're looking for more warmth than what you are getting, in my opinion, a nice tubed dac or warmer tubes in your preamp would be necessary. A different CDP (Musical Fideltiy Tri Vista Tubed sacd), or a better yet a tubed DAC like the Audio Logic may be what you're after. Best bet is to try and audition them if you can.

shokunin · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 07:23 pm »

Quote from: PhilNYC

woodsyi,

My personal opinion is to keep the source as neutral as possible and add "warmth" (character, color, whatever you want to call it) later in the system. If you have a tubed linestage, have you tried trying other tubes to achieve the warmth you're looking for?

I agree with Phil here, all your other sources will benefit from the tubed linestage versus just the CDP. The farther from the source you go will allow you tailor the sound for any source you have.

woodsyi · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 07:48 pm »

Levi,
I can't afford a Halcro amp! I am not asking this question for some esoteric audiophilic exercise. Last night, I put in my favorite CD of Rigoletto which features Domingo and Cortrubas. Cortrubas is my favorite soprano for colorature rolls. Despite issues with her breathing and brittle highend, she transports me to that "nirvana" where you lose yourself in the moment. Unfortunately she was never a mega star and does not have alot of recordings and they are in CD format only. I wish I can find records but I can't. Anyway, for the first time with my CDP and the rest of the audio system, I found myself cringing after one particular aria because her voice turned shrill. I have listened to this CD at least a hundred times. I never heard this before. I have heard her at the Met -- I know she doesn't sound like that.

I am thinking that the improvement that I have made to my speaker setup somehow has exposed a weakness in my source -- it's the first time playing this CD since I got the RM40's back from cabinet and other upgrades followed by much fiddling. This is the reason I am looking for some "warmth" in my CD. I don't think it's the speaker set up because other music sound so good with near perfect tonal balance for me. One other reason may be that I need to get a newerly remastered CD as mine are from the 80's when CD recording wasn't the best(?)

PhilNYC · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 08:10 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi

I can't afford a Halcro amp! ...

And if its warmth that you want, Halcro's probably the last amp on earth you'd want to buy...

Jon L · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 08:20 pm »

"I don't think it's the speaker set up because other music sound so good with near perfect tonal balance for me. One other reason may be that I need to get a newerly remastered CD as mine are from the 80's when CD recording wasn't the best(?)"

Yikes, you should have said this before. If well-recorded CD's sound great with "near perfect tonal balance," but your 1980's classical CD sounds shrill at certain parts, I would probably rethink the solution.

Yes, the source is the problem, source being the CD! BTW, of all the 1980's classical CD's I own, NONE sounds fantastic. There are some that are listenable, but most sound unnatural. Big difference from a well-recorded classical CD from year 2004.

You could buy a tubed digital product that will significantly roll-off and reduce these peaky areas, but the rest of your good recordings probably won't sound as good. A great, neutral tubed digital will not cover up those shrill areas, either.

The solution is either getting better-recorded versions of the CD's, or incorporating some kind of a EQ device into your sytem to use with poor CD's IMO.

Uptown Audio · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 09:12 pm »

You might try another pair of tubes in your preamp to see if that helps as it can and is less than a new component. We do sell a tubed CD player but it is my least favorite of any players that we carry. I would tell you what I recommend, but I am not supposed to do that here?! So I'll just say that perhaps there would be a better solid state choice although the ES is not a poor unit by any standards. You might consider an outboard DAC and you could then have your choice of using the ES or the other DAC for individual CDs by simply selecting another input on your preamp.
-Bill

woodsyi · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 09:45 pm »

I did not say great music from CD. I get great sound from LP's and SACD's. XA777es as a redbook CDP has always sounded a little disconnected. You can't pin point a lack of something here or there but there are some emotive values that are missing on the CDs. And now I get this Memorex moment (you know the one about breaking glass) on a passage when I never did before. All same variables except the speakers, which I think are improved. I will look for a new recording but I also want a better CDP that will be able to pass on the passions in the voices.

I looked into Truth Signature mod for XA777es with tube output, but Dan was (still is) too busy and I am investigating possiblities of a separate DAC for less then the cost of Mod which is substantial.

Hantra · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 10:35 pm »

Quote from: Levi

I remembered a friend who witnessed a stock broker who could not make up his mind if he likes the Halcro amp or the Bryston amp. The guy ended up purchasing both. Must be nice

DEAR gOD!

I would have no issue making up my mind between the Halcro and _____________ amp. . . Much less a Bryston.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 10:45 pm »

Quote from: Hantra

Quote from: Levi
I remembered a friend who witnessed a stock broker who could not make up his mind if he likes the Halcro amp or the Bryston amp. The guy ended up purchasing both. Must be nice

DEAR gOD!

I would have no issue making up my mind between the Halcro and _____________ amp. . . Much less a Bryston.

I'm guessing that anyone who can afford Halcro amps would have no problems with "spare change" to throw in a Bryston for the heck of it...

Hantra · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Nov 2004, 10:46 pm »

Quote from: PhilNYC

I'm guessing that anyone who can afford Halcro amps would have no problems with "spare change" to throw in a Bryston for the heck of it...

That's true. . Everyone needs a good laundry room system. .