[megabigeye]

Hi all,
I'm in the process of putting together a Bottlehead Quicksand Quickie combo and am finding myself in need of a pair of speakers to go with them.  I figured since the Bottleheads are DIY, then the speakers should be, too.  I also figure since the Bottleheads are Cheap & Cheerful, then the speakers should be, too (not to mention that I really don't need another system, so spending money is hard to justify.  Plus, I like cheap and cheerful!).
The drawback to DIY being that I have don't have the tools or space to do cabinet work.  So something with a flatpack at least is necessary.

I'm currently considering the GR Research LGK 1.0 or the Madisound P800E or 1000E Kanspea.

That's about as far as I've gotten and I don't really know if either of them is appropriate for what I nee-- uh, want.  I plan on using the system either near-field or possibly in a smallish bedroom in an apartment.  In other words, I don't need anything that's gonna shake the earth.  The Quicksand only puts out 4 watts into 8 ohms (and 8 into 4) and the most sensitive speaker (of the ones I mentioned) is the LGK at 90dB/w/m.
I was mostly considering full range/single driver because a) that's what I'm familiar with, and b) I've read that single driver is better for near-field.  But a) I'm not averse to trying something new, and b) I don't know if what I've read is true (or how much of a difference it really makes).

So, questions:
Is 86dB/W-90dB/W sensitive enough for my needs?
Am I right that I should stick with single driver speakers?
Are there other speakers in the price range (~$200) that I should consider?

[borism]

Hi megabigeye,

I also built a Bottlehead amplifier - a Stereomour. It's 3.5 w/ch. Recently, I was also looking for a DIY monitor with reasonable sensitivity and a flat pack and found the Diysoundgroup. Here is a kit that might fit your needs:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits/volt-10lx/v10-volt-lxe-kit.html

You can also see my build thread of the Fusion Alchemy here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139584.0

These speakers have a sensitivity of ~94 dB/w. The first one is less expensive (~$370/pair including flat pack - a little more than your budget) and has greater bass extension. My experience was very positive and I can highly recommend the Diysoundgroup's offerings.

Good luck!

[walkern]

May I suggest a couple of other purveyors of fine speaker kits for you to peruse? 
Meniscus Audio offers a wide variety of options, and many can be fitted into the Parts Express Cabinets.[urlhttp://meniscusaudio.com/kits-c-133.html][/url]
Also the folks at Creative Sound Solutions offer quite a range of kits, many of which can also be executed with the Parts Express cabinets: [urlhttp://www.creativesound.ca/index.html][/url]
So long as you aren't trying to get too much volume out of your Bottlehead electronics, you many not need to opt for high sensitivity speakers.

[undertow]

Honestly I suggest 94, 96 db plus, and that's regardless if its 1.5 watts, or 35 watts.

Not an easy task as there are very few easy options to achieve that efficiency unless going to a horn, line array, or high efficiency single driver, or something fairly large in either case. But there is a couple options on this board, one of which are the Omega speakers, and honestly vs. building them will cost you less as well overall vs. most kits, and then needing the cabinet work done on top of it.

Looks like Omega has a few options worth exploring for under 1000.00 to 1500.00 in total pair cost, and have heard [read] good things about them here on Audiocircle.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=31

http://omegaloudspeakers.com/home.html

[srb]

Looks like Omega has a few options worth exploring for under 1000.00 to 1500.00 in total pair cost, and have heard [read] good things about them here on Audiocircle.

Not C&C, and OP's budget was ~ $200.

[undertow]

Sorry not paying attention... I thought when he put C&C it was literally like CnC for cabinets... Yeah I don't know of any "Kits" that would be anywhere near 200.00 especially with cabinets worth even looking at.

I would then highly suggest looking into used Klipsch speakers all of which go from anywhere at 100 to probably 250 a pair, bookshelf, or floorstanding with 95 to 100 db efficiency. You can normally find plenty of Klipsch on local Craigslist too saving you a lot in shipping!

[Brad]

For nearfield, I think the 90db LGK single driver would give you plenty of volume.
Plus be another fun build 

[undertow]

Yeah I mean I could argue at this price point it would be best spent on headphones all together, and end up with better results. A sheet of MDF will run you 50 bucks not even cut! Unless buying used already built speakers not worth the effort.

[matt_garman]

For nearfield, assuming you don't like extreme volume levels, I don't think efficiency is too much of a concern.  Consider most manufacturers state efficiency in terms of dB per watt per meter.  And I tend to think of nearfield as right around the one meter mark.  So you can take that spec to mean, how loud it will be with only one watt of power in the listening position.

I do most of my listening nearfield, with speakers that around around 85 dB efficient.  Volume has never been a problem, even with low powered amps.  In fact, when I started paying attention, I was using the $10 Sure tpa3110 amp from Parts Express with a 12V power supply.  They advertise this amp as 8 WPC, but if you look at the datasheet, with 8-ohm speakers at 12V supply, you get around 6 WPC before the distortion goes through the roof.  Again, never felt volume was the limiting factor.

I do like modest volume levels though.  Using free SPL meter apps, when I get to around 80ish DB, that's my version of "cranked".

Take a look at the Overnight Sensations speaker kit.  DIYSoundGroup also sells a kit.  Excluding finish, these should come in under $150.  These were actually the speakers I was using when I was playing with that super low-powered tpa3110 amp.

There's no shortage of people who have built these speakers, so the community support is tremendous.  At that price you won't get perfection obviously, but I think the value is quite high.

Note on finishing: you can spend $0 on finish, or crazy amounts.  The finish is only for aesthetic purposes.  I'm a big fan of Duratex.  It looks very "industrial", but it's cheap and rugged, and most importantly (for me) super easy to apply.  The $30 trial size would be enough to finish the Overnight Sensations.

Also take a look at Planet 10 HiFi.  They basically specialize in single driver (full range) designs.  They sell some fancier flat pack kits as a matter of routine.  But some of their cheaper/simpler designs are available upon request.  That's what I'm using now, the "Slim CGR dMar-Ken7.3".  Planet10 did all the wood cutting for me into a flat pack (nice multi-layer ply too, not MDF).

[rajacat]

Hi megabigeye,

I also built a Bottlehead amplifier - a Stereomour. It's 3.5 w/ch. Recently, I was also looking for a DIY monitor with reasonable sensitivity and a flat pack and found the Diysoundgroup. Here is a kit that might fit your needs:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits/volt-10lx/v10-volt-lxe-kit.html

You can also see my build thread of the Fusion Alchemy here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139584.0

These speakers have a sensitivity of ~94 dB/w. The first one is less expensive (~$370/pair including flat pack - a little more than your budget) and has greater bass extension. My experience was very positive and I can highly recommend the Diysoundgroup's offerings.

Good luck!

I second the diysoundgroup recommendation. The SEOS waveguides offer the possibility of high end sound quality at a bargain price. Buy one of the 12" or 15" waveguide kits, assemble the CAD designed cabinets, add a couple of subs and be happy. However, if you want to get the maximum SQ, you could tweak the crossover with boutique parts, maybe beef up the cabinet a little bit and add No Rez. This is definitely max SQ for the price.

[megabigeye]

Hey, thanks, everybody!
I guess I forgot to mention that size is a consideration.    They'll probably go on a dresser or desktop, or something similar, so no 10" or 15" drivers.  Sorry for not mentioning that before.

The DIYSoundGroup Fusion-6 Vibe is kinda tempting for its great user reviews, even though I think they're a bit bigger than is ideal...  But it's lower limit of 67Hz gives me pause.  I know I'm probably deceiving myself if I think the LGKs will deliver more on the low end, but for some reason I've convinced myself I won't mind with them so much.    DIYSoundGroup also used to have the Anarchy Tapped Horn sub, which at one point I thought was really cool looking and tempting in an I-really-really-don't-need-or-have-room-for-it-but-if-I-just-get-rid-of-some-furniture-it-might-just-work-(I'm-sure-my-girlfriend-won't-mind) kind of way.  Plus they're not available anymore.  And plus they're subwoofers, which aren't what I'm looking for.  Derp-dee-der.

The Overnight Sensations I thought about a while ago, but I gave up on them because of their low sensitivity.  I'm still a little skeptical, though it is encouraging that something so low-sensitivity can work.  I don't think I'd want to be tied to my seat if I want to listen.

Planet_10 has some beautiful looking speakers.  But I'll be honest, I glaze over a bit when I look at websites like this.  I can barely bring myself to read anything on it because it's so confusingly laid out.  Anyway...  The mFonken and µFonken look like they'd be ideal, but I'm having trouble determining whether or not they're available.  I think they are?  Huh.  I'll look into those more. Maybe a bit past my budget.  Pretty, though!

And oh, yeah.  I've drooled over Omegas before and considered getting one of their smaller speakers in the Level 1 finish, but it's still more than I want to spend and it's not DIY.  There was also a pair of Blumenstein Orcas on the trading post here a little while ago.  Maybe I was a fool for not jumping on them at the time, but I convinced myself that since they aren't DIY that they weren't what I was looking for.

matt_garman (and anybody else in the know): you say that high efficiency isn't a necessity for near-field, but do you think, e.g., 90dB/W is enough for a small room (as in, not sitting a meter away from the drivers)?

Thanks again for all the input, everybody!  Gives me more to think about.

[Folsom]

$200 for drivers or entire speakers? You can spend $200 on drivers and get some decent ones but then you need another $40 for no-rez, and $50-100 for decent wood. $20 screws and glue. Finish cost $, but is optional.

Clarify on $ and then I'll put my vote in on DIY.

[megabigeye]

The budget is for everything.  I might be willing to stretch it a bit if it's otherwise really convincing.

And I should clarify: this will be my first DIY speaker, so simple is better.  When I mentioned the LGKs, I meant the ones with the assembled cabs.  Gluing seems doable, but screwing/drilling, etc. requires more tools I don't currently have.

[Folsom]

Well, this is mission impossible really... I'm not trying to be offensive but as someone who's been on a budget every time I've built my own speakers, I've got to say if that's the limit maybe you should consider not doing the project at all - I've never been able to spend so little.

These speakers fit the budget, and I'd use a sheet of no-rez to make it much better. The 103 is a little more efficient.

But I think your power will be awfully low with them. Efficiency wise 90db at 4ohm should be ok.

A better way to go...

The flatback for Frugal Horn, which is $295 by itself, but will allow you to use nothing more than some glue and a roll of blue masking tape to put it together (clamps would be helpful). And it'll let you use the FE126en that's $57 a piece but very efficient to mate with the amplifier.. Some think the driver is a little dated, but honestly if you no-rez the cabinet intelligently to reduce back reflections then it'll be a very nice little speaker.

Or as stated the Fusion 8 will be $402 before shipping for two full kits; not including no-rez which I'd use.

There just isn't that much out there with flatpacks, that has really high efficiency; even with more money.

[JLM]

Without going with much bigger and/or more expensive speakers you'll never get much beyond background listening or little girl and guitar levels.  You can't fool mother nature (or the laws of physics).  Giving up any semblance of deep bass is pretty much a given.  And high efficiency (at a sane price) also equates to various colorations.  Only you can decide if it would be enough.  I tried for years to warm up to small SETs, but being a speaker guy of sorts gave up on the necessary compromises. 

If you can double your budget another option is Brines Acoustics flat packs.  Bob designs/builds transmission line speakers and offers a 16.5"x7"x8.25" desktop model (T7-A7) that uses the Alpair A7 extended range driver (88 dB/w/m, F3 = 65 Hz, F10 = 35 Hz) as plans, pre-cut cabinet panels, or fully assembled.  Still you'll be limited to low 90s dB in-room output.  This is a good compromise between sound quality, size, and price to go along with your amp.

[Poultrygeist]

While others say the FE126En are best used in BL horns Fostex offers these fairly simple DIY bass reflex plans.

The FE126En at 93 dbs works well with a 3 watt amp and a pair goes for a little over $100.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-fullrange/fostex-fe126en-4-full-range/

[seikosha]

The Fostex Kanspea at Madisound is kind of DIY.  It fits your budget.  It's going to be weak at the low end and will show limitations with some music.  If you listen nearfield in a small room, it's something to consider.  I'd spring for the FF105WK version.  Nice speaker for what it is.

[megabigeye]

So I feel like I've let this steer itself in a different direction than I originally wanted.  I realize now that what I'm saying is mission impossible, but I don't think it has to be.  I don't think.

I mentioned the LGK and the Madisound Kanspea because 1) they're inexpensive, 2) they're mostly assembled already, 3) they get good reviews.  I realize something like this isn't an end game speaker; I'm just wondering if they would be appropriate for my needs.  I assumed that by mentioning these that people would get my basic desires and extrapolate from there.

I wouldn't mind something a little more involved in the building process (in fact, I would really enjoy it), but it has to basically snap together.  Clamps are okay, but I don't have room for drills, routers, CNC machines, or even, for that matter, wood shavings and sawdust.
Something like the DIYSoundGroup Fusion-6 Vibe waveguide might be ideal in this sense, but it's a little larger than is ideal.

I wouldn't mind increasing my budget a bit and otherwise being flexible, but it has to be something that even a neophyte with no tools or shop can complete competently.  I'm not willing to spend money on something that's going to end up being a pile of scrap wood and some drivers.

I'm thinking at the moment that what I'll do is hook up my main speakers which are rated at 86dB/W and see if that gets me anywhere close to where I want to go.

Thanks again for all the input!  You guys are helping me steer my thinking in a more focused and logical way.

[srb]

I wouldn't mind something a little more involved in the building process (in fact, I would really enjoy it), but it has to basically snap together.  Clamps are okay, but I don't have room for drills, routers, CNC machines, or even, for that matter, wood shavings and sawdust.

Is a simple electric hand drill out of the question?  Because if you decided on the Kanspea I would want to replace those awful spring push connectors with binding posts.

The existing connectors appear to be surface mounted, with likely two small holes for the wires to pass through.  If that's the case, the existing wire holes might be able to be easily enlarged to accept binding posts without having to cut out a large (circular or rectangular) hole for a binding post cup.

That would give you a little extra assembly challenge. 

Steve

[Poultrygeist]

The kanspea's are a good choice. There are also prebuilt enclosures on eBay for Fostex drivers.