[Headlands]

Greetings! I'm trying to find an alternative to the Bryston 10B Sub crossover, to use as an HPF filter for my Amphion speakers. It's very expensive new and unless I can find one used I'm going to need to look into an alternative that is hopefully as high quality as the Bryston. Any ideas?


Thanks!

[JerryM]

Welcome to AudioCircle, Headlands. 

[ArthurDent]

Greetings & Welcome to AC Headlands   

[richidoo]

Welcome to AudioCircle Headlands!

You have a few options.

Marchand makes analog line level filters like Bryston. Maybe not as adjustable, but if you already know your freq and slope then you can save some money with a simpler filter like Marchand sells. They have active SS/tube and they make passive filters using inductors that supposedly sounds really good.
http://www.marchandelec.com/

You can buy a commercial, digital pro audio speaker management component, like dbx, rane, behringer, etc. These are digital, and will color the sound somewhat. XLR connections.

You can make (diy) a RC based passive line level crossover filter before the amplifier powering your Amphions. This is very inexpensive and very easy to make, very high sound quality. Works for the shallower 1st or 2nd order electrical filters only. If you need 4th order then you need a powered active filter. It could be as simple as adding one series cap to the interconnect. Depends on your filter freq and the speaker rolloff.  Need to know more about your goal.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html

You can make (diy) an active analog line level crossover filter of you need a steeper slope. See projects 09, 81 and 125. You can adapt these designs to your own needs, or buy the PCB and assemble. This too can be very simple and inexpensive with superb SQ. This is essentially the same as some of the Marchand products, but potentially much less expensive.
http://sound.westhost.com/projects-0.htm#xvr

Last option is to use an amplifier with programmable digital filter feature built into the amp. Pro audio amps like Crown DriveCore XLS series, Hypex, etc.

I'm happy to help you with any of the diy options.

Can you provide more specifics?  Are you adding a sub? Which sub?
Rich

[Phil A]

Welcome to AC!

[brooklyn]

[Headlands]

Thanks, all! Looking forward to talking shop with everyone, to help feed my addiction. 

[Headlands]

Welcome to AudioCircle Headlands!

You have a few options.

Marchand makes analog line level filters like Bryston. Maybe not as adjustable, but if you already know your freq and slope then you can save some money with a simpler filter like Marchand sells. They have active SS/tube and they make passive filters using inductors that supposedly sounds really good.
http://www.marchandelec.com/

You can buy a commercial, digital pro audio speaker management component, like dbx, rane, behringer, etc. These are digital, and will color the sound somewhat. XLR connections.

You can make (diy) a RC based passive line level crossover filter before the amplifier powering your Amphions. This is very inexpensive and very easy to make, very high sound quality. Works for the shallower 1st or 2nd order electrical filters only. If you need 4th order then you need a powered active filter. It could be as simple as adding one series cap to the interconnect. Depends on your filter freq and the speaker rolloff.  Need to know more about your goal.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html

You can make (diy) an active analog line level crossover filter of you need a steeper slope. See projects 09, 81 and 125. You can adapt these designs to your own needs, or buy the PCB and assemble. This too can be very simple and inexpensive with superb SQ. This is essentially the same as some of the Marchand products, but potentially much less expensive.
http://sound.westhost.com/projects-0.htm#xvr

Last option is to use an amplifier with programmable digital filter feature built into the amp. Pro audio amps like Crown DriveCore XLS series, Hypex, etc.

I'm happy to help you with any of the diy options.

Can you provide more specifics?  Are you adding a sub? Which sub?
Rich

This is great information, thanks!

My mains are Amphion One18s (this is for my studio), and the sub is a Dynaudio BM9s. The reason why I'd like to do it this way is that I really want to be able to take advantage of the LE extension of the One18s, which -- even though they're small -- is something they're known for sonically, and that I enjoy when mixing. I just want to relieve them from energy under around 45 hz (which is where a very steep drop happens frequency response-wise). The BM9s crossover for the satellites only goes down to 60hz. I also want to be able to turn the sub on and off and sometimes use the One18s full range (for some genres this is a more effective way to mix, I've found). With an external HPF/crossover I would be able to do this remotely since I can have my sub on a different output on my monitor control station. Ideally I'd like something that has no coloration whatsoever (if that's even possible!). Also, I can't go passive because this is a balanced XLR-based system (unless I'm wrong and I can go passive?).

I'd be very interested in a DIY situation, though I've never done something like that before aside from wiring a patch bay myself. I'm actually not sure what the slope is of the LPF on the Dynaudio sub...the spec only mention the slope of the crossover (2nd order Butterworth), which ( wouldn't be using in this situation. Would it need to match?

[Headlands]

The Marchand stuff looks very interesting!

[richidoo]

The crossover slopes and types don't need to "match" by name, but they need to sum in amplitude to give you the net frequency response you want. Whether you can get away with 2nd order filters depends on the speakers own natural rolloff.

Since SQ is important to you, I would steer clear of the  crowded $500 category of pro audio speaker management boxes. I have owned many of them, they are useful and "sound good" but not audiophile quality. They are not good enough for final mastering for hire although I bet they are used that way more often than I'd care to know!

Likely most of your signal path is single ended inside the components, but pro gear uses XLR connectors. Often the SE>BAL conversion stage can be cruel to SQ. Marchand is a audiophile brand, so they do try to have good sound quality as does Bryston. Filters are almost always single ended, but can be converted to and from XLR easily.

I want to read your last post more carefully and look up your speakers and subs, then I'll reply again to the rest of your questions. Running out to din with the wife now.
Rich

[Headlands]

Gotcha, thanks.

Here is a link to the frequency response of the One18s: http://www.amphion.fi/files/cache/2a3927899c3b9a69437bbc2e9110ea07.jpg

For the Dynaudio BM9S sub, I can't find seem to information on what type of filter/slope the variable LPF is. I sent them a request for it, and hopefully I'll get it soon.

[richidoo]

You could insert a Marchand XO, they have XLR option on some models. The PR will mix up the phase a little between the two driven drivers, but you can tune it by ear.

If you use digital processing in your mixing, can you apply a software HP in your DAW, as a VST plugin, etc? Or better yet, run the sub full range and use a DAW LP on that too. Such a dsp filter would probably allow more control of delay, etc for finer tuning. If you are already coming from DAC, then doing the xo filters in 64 bit audio engine of the DAW would be free of any SQ penalty.

Now you can tell me you are all analog, right?

[Headlands]

You could insert a Marchand XO, they have XLR option on some models. The PR will mix up the phase a little between the two driven drivers, but you can tune it by ear.

If you use digital processing in your mixing, can you apply a software HP in your DAW, as a VST plugin, etc? Or better yet, run the sub full range and use a DAW LP on that too. Such a dsp filter would probably allow more control of delay, etc for finer tuning. If you are already coming from DAC, then doing the xo filters in 64 bit audio engine of the DAW would be free of any SQ penalty.

Now you can tell me you are all analog, right?

Ha ha! Nope, not all analog here. 

I would do that except that I would need two separate stereo outputs running at the same time from my DAW (one to the sub, one to the mains) in order to apply the HPF only to the mains, since they are running in parallel with the sub. I can't do that because I'm using a monitor station that is just a monitor/input switcher and only does one input at a time going to all monitor outputs. Otherwise I would totally do what you're saying, as it would be the best option for sure.

[richidoo]

Do you use stereo Dac or multi channel? Is the switcher the DAC/ADC?

For analog xo I would build one with active 2nd order filter between THAT Corp. THAT1200 balanced receiver and THAT 1646 balanced driver. Dual 15v PS needed. Filter circuit seen in Elliot project 81 linked above, in/out circuits seen on the That spec sheets. Belleson regulators forPS. About $200 parts. Not too difficult but maybe not ideal 1st DIY project.  And it's not easily adjustable like a xo box.

Did you ever try the sub's HP outputs? How'd it sound?

[richidoo]

Just remembered I saw this XO box for sale..
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649219420-xilica-xp-4080-dsp-processor-and-crossover-great-for-subwoofer-crossover-or-speaker-tuning/

It is major overkill for what you need, but the SQ is excellent and it's selling half price from a dealer. I almost bought it myself but it only has analog inputs, no USB or digital input. But it should be fine for what you need. You can fine tune to your hearts desire.

Edit: Xilica makes a digital input version also but you wont find those used.

[JLM]

Many subs have built-in high pass filters with high gain outputs, but that would require you to wire amp to sub to the Amphions.

[Headlands]

Do you use stereo Dac or multi channel? Is the switcher the DAC/ADC?

For analog xo I would build one with active 2nd order filter between THAT Corp. THAT1200 balanced receiver and THAT 1646 balanced driver. Dual 15v PS needed. Filter circuit seen in Elliot project 81 linked above, in/out circuits seen on the That spec sheets. Belleson regulators forPS. About $200 parts. Not too difficult but maybe not ideal 1st DIY project.  And it's not easily adjustable like a xo box.

Did you ever try the sub's HP outputs? How'd it sound?

I use stereo DAC at the moment. The switcher is the Dangerous Monitor ST, which is all analog: http://dangerousmusic.com/product/monitor-st/
The issue with my setup is that it needs to go from the DAW interface to the Monitor ST to my speakers, so I would need a more complex setup to run the sub and mains in parallel with separate DAC outputs and be able to control the overall volume with one control. Unless I'm being stupid here, which is a possibility!

The problem with the sub HP is that it's only at 60z or 80hz.

I could have a friend help me out for that DIY HP.

[Headlands]

Whoops, double post.

[Headlands]

Just remembered I saw this XO box for sale..
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649219420-xilica-xp-4080-dsp-processor-and-crossover-great-for-subwoofer-crossover-or-speaker-tuning/

It is major overkill for what you need, but the SQ is excellent and it's selling half price from a dealer. I almost bought it myself but it only has analog inputs, no USB or digital input. But it should be fine for what you need. You can fine tune to your hearts desire.

Edit: Xilica makes a digital input version also but you wont find those used.

Interesting! My brain that is trained from years of thinking that more digital conversion is bad is scared. But if coloration or signal degradation is not an issue here, I might just do it. I trust your opinion, based on what you've written so far. It would actually be very useful for room correction as well -- I'm using a high quality EQ plugin on my computer for a little bit of room correction, and it would be great to take that out of the DSP usage and switch it to the Xilica.

How would you sonically compare the Xilica (going in analog) vs. the DIY version you described in the former post? Again, I need the most un-colored and transparent sound possible.

[richidoo]

I use stereo DAC at the moment. The switcher is the Dangerous Monitor ST, which is all analog: http://dangerousmusic.com/product/monitor-st/
The issue with my setup is that it needs to go from the DAW interface to the Monitor ST to my speakers, so I would need a more complex setup to run the sub and mains in parallel with separate DAC outputs and be able to control the overall volume with one control. Unless I'm being stupid here, which is a possibility!

The problem with the sub HP is that it's only at 60z or 80hz.

I could have a friend help me out for that DIY HP.

That switcher looks pretty wild!     It would be impractical to try to duplicate that function in software!