[Psychicanimal]

This keeps getting better...

Everyone needs to study and adapt to one's needs--or pay someone.  The most important thing about AC, Rob, is that noise gets amplified as it travels towards the speakers.  Any residual noise floor is simply bad.  Power must be clean in order to make good equiment choices, SS, valve or digital.  It's just the area where I chose to speciallize, just like Doug S. is a mean bastard with the *tuna's*, Jose Garcia with racks & DIY room acoustic treatments, TWL of Audiogon with analog, etc.

For the record, I have NO electrical knowledge...

[Rob Babcock]

No knock on you, Psychic- I didn't mean imply that you think you know it all.   It wasn't a pointed attack on any specific AC'er, but an observation of many many different audio forums I've gleaned from years of participation.

I agree lowing the noise floor is always a good thing.  I think that in most systems, though, the room is the most important component in determining what the effect NC will be.  But every dB helps.

You can of course offer or withhold your advice as you see fit.  I know it can be a burden to answer the same noob questions repeatedly, especially when you feel they're not very serious & just wasting your time.  No one has to defend their willingness or unwillingness to participate- it's a personal call.

[DVV]

A big problem I also see a lot is the "Guru Mentality."  This occurs when something decides they know so much about something that their advice has become solid gold.  This golden wisdom is too valuable to be given out freely, and any ideas contrary to those of the Guru must be fatally flawed.  The real problem is that the Guru, thinking he now knows it all, has lost the ability to learn.  When a person degenerates to that stage, his or her opinions become pretty much worthless.

It can be frustrating to  ...

A small correction here, Rob - when somebody decides he knows it all, that's no big deal, anyone can trip out like that. The problem comes when that somebody convinces others that this is so, and when that is accepted as a fact. This usually produces faithful followers, some of whom typically become zealots in spreading the good word.

That's what produces "common known truths", which all too often defiy science, Ohm's law and gravity, all in one swoop.

For the rest, I can only agree with you. The day I stop learning is the day I die intelectually. Also the day I stop having fun in life.

Cheers,
DVV

[Psychicanimal]

I think that in most systems, though, the room is the most important component in determining what the effect NC will be.  But every dB helps.

I've found that acoustics, power and then vibration control are interrellated to a degree that's way out of what I could ever imagine.  

They seem to go in order, though:
1) room acoustics
2) power
3) vibration control

Room acoustics will let you hear the equiment (including *electrical power*), but if the power is not right then your'e hearing noise and artifacts and will tend to choose 'Band Aid' solutions--especially in cabling.  Vibration control defines the envelope of listening fatigue and clarity and cannot be properly dialed in unless acoustics and power have been resolved.  Now neutral cables can be chosen and the system tuned to one's *taste*.

Maybe this is why it's so hard...

[DVV]

I've found that acoustics, power and then vibration control are interrellated to a degree that's way out of what I could ever imagine.  

They seem to go in order, though:
1) room acoustics
2) power
3) vibration control

Room acoustics will let you hear the equiment (including *electrical power*), but if the power is not right then your'e hearing noise and artifacts and will tend to choose 'Band Aid' solutions--especially in cabling.  Vibration control defines the envelope of listening fatigue and cl ...

Personally, I'd trade places betwen 1) and 2). No matter what your room is like, dirty power will mess up your sound. Also, a good line filter will make your electronics safer, again no matter what room or electronics you have.

Cheers,
DVV

[Dan Banquer]

What, no cables on that list? Is this "high end" heresy?
                        d.b.

[sys1]

"Why, (I ask myself, is it that so many people want this? I mean, either you do the work of selecting, auditioning, choosing or you come up with some serious $$$ and go to a top notch audio salon that will hook you up. That's why audio is called a *hobby*."

It's always easier to buy a new box or cable. Having great big speakers, not great sound quality is more important for impressing your friends.
Hi End Audio is a business,which uses media experts to help them sell their boxes and cables.  DIY audio is a hobby.

[Psychicanimal]

What, no cables on that list? Is this "high end" heresy?
                        d.b.

Not at all, not at all...

After those three conditions are met, then neutral, musically accurate cables can be chosen. I prefer naturally insulated, silver cabling.

Wow, Dejan doesn't even let me slip a single 'politically correct' answer!

Truth is, room acoustics measures don't need to be full fledged--power delivery/noise control measures definitely have to be.  But then again, power is influenced by vibration to a more or lesser degree depending on the specifics.  For example, capacitor based devices like the DeZorel are less succeptible than transformer based ones.  That's why everybody nees to do homework.

[Dan Banquer]

I can see my earlier post was taken totally out of context.  Then again that does speak volumes about Audio Forum Mentality.
                 d.b.

[Psychicanimal]

I can see my earlier post was taken totally out of context.  Then again that does speak volumes about Audio Forum Mentality.
                 d.b.

     

[DVV]

Dan, Francisco, everybody,

Sooner or later, somebody will get down to writing a check list for audio, much like pilots have before take-off. It will be debated, spat on, cherished, elevated to the status exceeding the Holy Bible and Q'uran put together and passed on to the ignorant masses.

Lets us hope, brothers and sisters, that it will be us who will produce it; better us than them.

Example:

1. Clean up your power, it's a mess no matter where you live. How will you how anything sounds if it's fed with line noise and filth?

2. Get your room right, or you'll never know if it's the DAC, the cables (this one's for Dan) or the room (this one's for Francisco)?

3. Control those vibes baby, or you'll be hearing shivering capacitors, shaking transistors, tubes which are high or your wife screaming to turn the goddamn volume down, which if you do, you'll miss out on the detail.

4. DON'T reach for the chequebook, stranger, and smile. Sit down, and don't just listen, but HEAR the system. Try to isolate what's wrong, then check by borrowing from a friend; if it sounds different again with his, then it's probably that. Now, change THAT.

And so forth.

I can't wait to hear Nate's take on this.

Cheers,
DVV

[nathanm]

How do you know for sure if your power is dirty?  I mean, it seems to be a foregone conclusion that our electricity is this horrible thing.  But is it really that bad?  Why do I still get great sound?  I'm not denying the importance, but what I'd like to know is how a normal person can find out FOR SURE if their electricity is "dirty".  What type of lab gear do you need?  Can if be rented from someplace?  I don't have any qualms about power filtration but I think too often it is taken on sheer faith that one's power is terrible.  You can't exactly plug your ear into the wall socket and tell if the 60 or 50Hz tone is scratchy.

I am not in any way denying that clean power is a good thing, but personally I feel acoustics and speaker type\placement far supercedes anything else.  And the nice thing about acoustics is that you can hear the effects of it without having a single piece of stereo equipment in the room.

Someone should really invent a remote-controlled. motorized speaker stand so you can experiment without having to leave the chair.  I honestly think that would satisfy the constant-tweaking itch that we have.  Imagine just sitting there with your eyes closed and hold down a button which s l o w l y  moves the speakers closer together until the center fill just snaps into place.  Raise 'em up a few inches, move 'em forward or back.  Have presets so everybody can get the sound they like best.  Unless you have two extremely patient and\or bored friends to do this for you it's not very easy to do.

[Psychicanimal]

How do you know for sure if your power is dirty?  I mean, it seems to be a foregone conclusion that our electricity is this horrible thing.  But is it really that bad?  Why do I still get great sound?  I'm not denying the importance, but what I'd like to know is how a normal person can find out FOR SURE if their electricity is "dirty".  What type of lab gear do you need?  Can if be rented from someplace?  I don't have any qualms about power filtration but I think too often it is taken on sheer faith that on ...

You'd need an oscilloscope and a line viewer.  Noise can then be 'seen' at the oscilloscope's screen at specific frequencies.  That's why the majority of noise filters are high priced rip-offs.  Do they ever publish specs?  Of course not!  I sent Sean a link to a used ONEAC line viewer in eBay and he got it for less than $35!!!

The problem with noise, Nathan, is that it gets amplified along with the music signal, making things worse after each link in the audio chain.  It reaches your ears.  The people that have heard my rig agree that such a low noise floor must be experienced in order to be understood (Lak, Steve Rothermel of Ridge Street Audio, RX8man of Audiogon).

Someone should really invent a remote-controlled. motorized speaker stand so you can experiment without having to leave the chair.

Steve Rothermel did my speaker placement.  He's an expert!

My cousin Xavier (a controls EE) was so pissed off after his divorce that he got a hold of several PLCs with the intention of making a PLC controlled sex doll.  Fortunately,  he got a girlfriend before starting such a fiendish project...

[nathanm]

The problem with noise, Nathan, is that it gets amplified along with the music signal, making things worse after each link in the audio chain.

No doubt about that - but I wonder: do people have systems where they can actually hear hiss coming from the speakers from the listening position?  I'd think that'd be a pretty unlikely situation and that it would be completely masked by the music and ambient noise floor.  In both my systems I cannot hear any hiss from my chair unless it is in the middle of the night, but if I put my head to the driver there is hiss.  (all tube amps, SS amps I've had exhibited zero hiss)

And again, I would argue that in order to HEAR that noise in the first place you'd have to treat acoustics issues first, and still there could be noise issues beyond your control depending on where you live and in what kind of neighborhood.  (traffic noise, refridgerators, fans, air ducts etc.)  Making a room very absorptive with foam or fiberglass will definitely lower the ambient noise floor.  Obviously lowering the gear's noise is important too, I am only saying that it should be #2 not #1, that's all.

[Psychicanimal]

No doubt about that - but I wonder: do people have systems where they can actually hear hiss coming from the speakers from the listening position?  

That's not it, Nathan.  Dejan is in a better position to answer those questions (in another thread, preferrably).  Noise is not just about hiss.  Digital equipment, like my Technics 1200's quartz lock mechanism doesn't like to *navigate* through noise.  And that affects the deck's speed/rotational stability.

If you want I can loan/sell you a small kick ass isolation transformer for your CDP.  Let me know...

[eico1]

Unless you have two extremely patient and\or bored friends to do this for you it's not very easy to do...

Hey, sounds like a job for a service I once thought of, rent a deadhead.

The idea came to me while outside a show in Berkeley watching a guy make water to fill and empty bottle from ice.

I think your insights are right, just like everything else, priorities will shift depending on equipment and environment. A simple line filter should be good in most cases, but no external device will cure a bad internal power supply design.

steve

[satfrat]

Unless you have two extremely patient and\or bored friends to do this for you it's not very easy to do...

Hey, sounds like a job for a service I once thought of, rent a deadhead.

The idea came to me while outside a show in Berkeley watching a guy make water to fill and empty bottle from ice.

I think your insights are right, just like everything else, priorities will shift depending on equipment and environment. A simple line filter should be good in most cases, but no external device will cure a bad internal power supply design.

steve

   Until you've actually experienced what these guys are talking about, you're destined to continue believing that it's all the fault of the components power supply design. There are numerous ways to deal with power control, a good line filter is only 1. Frankly, in todays world, I think it takes much more than 1 answer to totally solve the whole problem. Fortunately, there's a lot of answers out thre and that's what makes tweaking so mucch fun. Of course, if you can't hear the difference then why bother. I know I wouldn't but then again, I can, thank God. Regards, Robin

[DVV]

How do you know for sure if your power is dirty?  I mean, it seems to be a foregone conclusion that our electricity is this horrible thing.  But is it really that bad?  Why do I still get great sound?  I'm not denying the importance, but what I'd like to know is how a normal person can find out FOR SURE if their electricity is "dirty".  What type of lab gear do you need?  Can if be rented from someplace?  I don't have any qualms about power filtration but I think too often it is taken on sheer faith that on ...

Nate, the problem with line noise is that it is rarely heard as such, as a say hiss from the speakers, to use your example. Rather, it is heard by virtue of the fact that your system CANNOT sound as well as it is actually capable of sounding, because it's being fed dirty power.

Rather than go into the fine details here and now, I would refer you to a text I wrote on the subject about 4 years ago; it is available as a ZIP file of 350 kB, but unzipped, it needs some megabytes, because it is well illustrated with charts. It will tell you EXACTLY why there is NO SUCH THING as clean power, although not everyone has the same degree of pollution.

If you and/or anyone else is interested, let me know and I'll mail it to you, or perhaps JohnR can tell me where to drop it off here for a more general availability.

Incidentally, that was the text that got Francisco going, we did some serious discussing of it in our time.

Cheers,
DVV

[JohnR]

If you and/or anyone else is interested, let me know and I'll mail it to you, or perhaps JohnR can tell me where to drop it off here for a more general availability.

Try audioholics.com. They seem to like brow-beating over there

[satfrat]

If you and/or anyone else is interested, let me know and I'll mail it to you, or perhaps JohnR can tell me where to drop it off here for a more general availability.

Try audioholics.com. They seem to like brow-beating over there

Especially if you're an owner of a Sunfire Theater Grand 3 processor.        Regards, Robin