[Psychicanimal]

When the Pulsar/Audience/RSA cable post got thrown to the Fight Club yesterday I couldn't help but remember a recent post I saw in Audio Asylum.  The relevant part reads as follows:

I don’t understand the audio forum mentality. Everybody wants to do DIY but nobody wants to Do It For Themselves. Instead they want someone else to do the work and then tell them what will work best for them in their system. A common forum question is: “Which is better, connecting the speaker cable to the woofer and then jumper to the tweeter or connecting the speaker cable to the tweeter and then jumper to the woofer?” The funny thing is, that question invariably gets numerous replies with each respondent expressing, with absolute certainty, that their preferred wiring method is the “correct” one. I guess Internet audiophiles are afraid to trust their ears and they seek comfort in following the herd. What if they listen and make the wrong choice (as determined by the herd)? What if they listen and don’t hear a difference (when the herd says they should)?

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/99308.html

***
Why, (I ask myself, is it that so many people want this?  I mean, either you do the work of selecting, auditioning, choosing or you come up with some serious $$$ and go to a top notch audio salon that will hook you up.  That's why audio is called a *hobby*.

[SWG255]

There is another component which is even more troubling and devisive, the egos involved. This hobby is very expensive and frankly most of the "world" thinks we're insane for spending the money we do for what is perceived by the masses as inaudible improvements for no monetary gain. This tends to make audiophiles a rather defensive bunch ready to jump at any criticism of their equipment. The latest manifestations of this are the "format wars", where the SACD, DVD-Audio and even vinyl proponents engage in rather ludicrous debates about which format is better and why all the other formats are doomed to immediate extinction.

I've always enjoyed AC because overall the folks here are less aggressive and more tolerant of others' views than on other audio forums and chat sites, but as our membership grows it seems we've had more posts like the aforementioned cabling post. I hope this isn't going to be a trend here too.

The point I keep before me is that this hobby should be fun, and when it isn't fun any longer, there's no point in spending the money, time and effort to keep it going for myself. However, when I sit back, relax and listen to a new recording or an old favorite and still really get involved in the music, I have no regrets for the money, time and effort spent.

[ohenry]

Everybody wants to do DIY but nobody wants to Do It For Themselves.

I like to consider directions that others have gone and then decide for myself what to try.  I suppose it's easiest and tempting to blindly follow, but I'm not that trusting of others.

To me, DIY talk is all about sharing experience and theory, but all too often, some little guys have big egos that get in the way.  Just check out the popular audio DIY forum if you want to witness silly pissing matches.

[SWG255]

Sorry folks, I don't know how my reply to Psychic Animal got posted three times and I don't know how to fix it!

[TheChairGuy]

Sorry folks, I don't know how my reply to Psychic Animal got posted three times and I don't know how to fix it!

Fixed now....good post (just not needed 3x)  

[_scotty_]

In reply to Psychicanimal ,There is definitely a herd mentality at work on the internet as well in the real world. Thinking for yourself is a scary proposition. I have also noticed that most people do not want to be responsible for the decisions they make.  They want someone else to blame if they feel that a choice they made was a wrong one.
We should be willing to carry the can regardless of the outcome of our decisions,  good or bad.  Scotty

[Red Dragon Audio]

my avatar rules!

ENTARO ADUN!

[Psychicanimal]

In reply to Psychicanimal ,There is definitely a herd mentality at work on the internet as well in the real world. Thinking for yourself is a scary proposition. I have also noticed that most people do not want to be responsible for the decisions they make.  They want someone else to blame if they feel that a choice they made was a wrong one.
We should be willing to carry the can regardless of the outcome of our decisions,  good or bad.  Scotty

I've gotten so tired of people asking about power delivery/noise control without doing any research that I called it quits.  People just want an easy answer to a complex subject--and not carry the responsibility.  I posted this in Audiogon:

I'm officially stopping helping anyone with power issues--unless they can prove they've done enough homework and are stuck somewhere. People who just want answers never truly learn--and can't pass on much either--because they develop no problem solving skills.

That's it for me.  The last person that asked me for help I e-mailed back that he should get a little 2-3 amp ONEAC and play with it (cryo'ed outlets/ cleaning contacts, damping, wood bases, cones, etc.).   The rest is extrapolation to higher amperages--kind of!

[ctviggen]

Although a lot of audio equipment is expensive, and it's sometimes easier to ask what people like instead of forking out hundreds or thousands to purchase interconnects/speaker wire/speakers and then do a test yourself.  Even with "30 day trials," you still have to fork out the money for at least some time period.

[Psychicanimal]

Although a lot of audio equipment is expensive, and it's sometimes easier to ask what people like instead of forking out hundreds or thousands to purchase interconnects/speaker wire/speakers and then do a test yourself.  Even with "30 day trials," you still have to fork out the money for at least some time period.

High end is who you are, not what you buy.

[ooheadsoo]

Why are you in a forum if you're not there to share your ideas?  I don't see what's wrong with people with less knowledge asking others how to do something.  Even better, they might tell you why they do something the way they do.  If you wanted to do it all yourself literally and hate those that ask questions, why visit the forum?  Forums are places for discussion.  

I do get tired of the prima donna attitudes at a certain diy audio forum but I have always enjoyed browsing madisound.

[PhilNYC]

Why, (I ask myself, is it that so many people want this?  I mean, either you do the work of selecting, auditioning, choosing or you come up with some serious $$$ and go to a top notch audio salon that will hook you up.  That's why audio is called a *hobby*.

I think some of the issue is that a lot of times, gear that people read/hear about is sometimes not readily available for people to try.  Not everyone lives near a good number of dealers that are (1) stocked with a wide variety of gear to demo and (2) willing to let people try things at home.  People in these situations want to get as much information as possible before going through the effort of tracking things down themselves.

Another issue is the sheer volume of stuff out there.  There are literally thousands of companies out there in the high end world making tons of claims (some real, some BS)...people ask questions on the forum as a datapoint to try to separate the real from the BS.

And regarding DIY stuff...I will tell you that some people just aren't that good with their hands or a soldering iron...

[Ulas]

Sharing knowledge and experience is one thing, but asking strangers to make decisions for you is another. There is a recent post on AA where the inmate says he has 2 sets of cables and wants someone to tell him which one he should use to “maximize his sound enjoyment.” Probably a third of all audio forum posts are similar. What’s the best this? What’s the best that? Which should I choose?

Last month I spent a couple days at RMAF. I wasn’t shopping for anything but I have an avid interest in audio, as a hobby, and I wanted to get my ears calibrated. You know, match what I hear with what others say they hear so, in the future, I can put their reviews and recommendations in perspective. I think everybody ought to do the same. If not an audio show, visit a well-stocked high-end dealer or two and get your ears calibrated. Based on my experience, the last place I would go for audio advice is an Internet forum. The next to the last place I would go for guidance is an audio review, either on the web or in print.

On second thought, maybe I should reverse the order and make professional audio reviews my very last choice. I once visited a “world famous” audio reviewer’s lair and heard his reference system. I shudder to think people are making significant purchasing decisions based on his reviews.

[_scotty_]

A clear red flag warning telling you to run the other way, is when someone asks you to recommend equipement to them that will make them happy,increase their enjoyment,
or any combination of words that are equivalent to the above.  This is an invitation to disaster.  Also, anytime a salesman tells you that purchasing  this piece
gear will lead to a deeper emotional connection with the music.  Your alarms
better start going off!

[DVV]

Why are you in a forum if you're not there to share your ideas?  I don't see what's wrong with people with less knowledge asking others how to do something.  Even better, they might tell you why they do something the way they do.  If you wanted to do it all yourself literally and hate those that ask questions, why visit the forum?  Forums are places for discussion.  

I do get tired of the prima donna attitudes at a certain diy audio forum but I have always enjoyed browsing madisound.

Offering info and help is something akin to giving a man the bricks and the mortar he needs. If you come back a few days later and there are no beginnings of a simple wall, you are wasting your time with that guy.

This is the outcome of a discussion my fiery tempered friend Francisco, aka Psychicanimal, and I had about two years ago, when I told him he'd come to a point like this.

He has discovered that most people don't know what to do with the help they asked for and got; a depressing minority takes it and actually does something with it. No matter how much help is dished out, this stays so in general terms, with only small variations.

On the other hand, every now and then,a guy or two come along who make it all worth its while. When Psychicanimal got interested in power filtering issues some 3 years ago or so, he asked me, but beside discussing it with me, he was working on his homework. In other words, he was using what I told him to form his own opinion, based on a combination of my and his experience, and over time, my share dropped in quantity as he gathered his own experience. THIS is the way it should be.

I can vouch that Psychicanimal is in effect only asking that others do what he himself has done. While fair, this is unrealistic - not everybody has his drive and energy, not everybody is as interested, etc.

Also, when giving the asked for advice, one very often runs into a maze of postulates from the "well, everybody KNOWS..." bag. That is one mean can of worms, but you can't avoid it, and people have much trouble unlocking from it and accepting a different point of view. The herd syndrome at work.

Cheers,
DVV

[JohnR]

Sharing knowledge and experience is one thing, but asking strangers to make decisions for you is another. There is a recent post on AA where the inmate says he has 2 sets of cables and wants someone to tell him which one he should use to “maximize his sound enjoyment.”

Yes, exactly, and you're left thinking "why don't you just try it and decide for yourself!"

I'm not sure why DIY was mentioned but I'm always bemused by folks that want someone to tell them what amp/speaker/whatever to build. Of course it's fine to solicit opinions and to understand the tradeoffs, but... well some folks seem to want an ironclad guarantee. Makes no sense to me, you never learn anything that way

[nathanm]

Well yes, but you can also be told you must use MY bricks, MY bricks weigh more than YOUR bricks, MY bricks have been modified by a skilled mason, if you use THOSE bricks I'll say only a fool uses THOSE bricks, and you just don't understand the vast masonic knowledge I have amassed over the years about the important sand content in MY mortar.  So you better get smart you idiot or I'll refuse to grace you with my presence and profound words ever again.

That might make a person not want to get into wall-building at all.

[stvnharr]

The forums are different places for different folks.  For many they are just places for gathering and sharing information and ideas, and can be quite useful for that purpose, though one often has to sort though a lot of puffery to get there.
I too read a fair number of posts where people are looking for answers without searching for much information on their own.  This is a good, and almost sure, way to be disappointed.  NO ONE can make up your mind but yourself.  This is usually a reflection of someone who just doesn't know enough to make an informed decision.  Reliance on forums and reviews take precedence over everything else.  Reviews are written by the "experts" afterall, and thus are the "truth".  Stereophile's Class A recommendations are looked at as some sort of audio bible of the "only" audio pieces worthy of purchase.
Years ago, an audio dealer friend told me, "You just have to listen and decide for yourself, and not trust reviews very much."  At the time, I was quite unsure about this, but through time, I now know how truly correct he was in his statement.
I think the same goes for forums.  They are mostly for fun and part of the hobby.

[DVV]

Well yes, but you can also be told you must use MY bricks, MY bricks weigh more than YOUR bricks, MY bricks have been modified by a skilled mason, if you use THOSE bricks I'll say only a fool uses THOSE bricks, and you just don't understand the vast masonic knowledge I have amassed over the years about the important sand content in MY mortar.  So you better get smart you idiot or I'll refuse to grace you with my presence and profound words ever again.

That might make a person not want to get into wall-building at all.

Quite so, Nate, but I would imagine a THINKING man would question the validity of such "advice".

I am currently working on a set of DIY boards (long story, let's leave it at that) and must write the instructions manuals. My opening sentence is to the effect that what I have proposed is only one of many possible alternatives, and while I recommend you start from that one because it's been tried and tested, here's a list of some possible alternatives. Go play, try your own, DON'T take my view as carved in stone because it isn't.

I have no idea how people will react to that, but I'm burning to find out. If the herd mentality takes over, there will be little positive reaction. Despite the fact that I, the guy who made it, RECOMMEND you play around with it, because that was my ruling idea, here's a platform, go make of it what you feel is best for you.

Maybe I have too much faith in what I assumed was natural curiosity.

Cheers,
DVV

[Rob Babcock]

A big problem I also see a lot is the "Guru Mentality."  This occurs when something decides they know so much about something that their advice has become solid gold.  This golden wisdom is too valuable to be given out freely, and any ideas contrary to those of the Guru must be fatally flawed.  The real problem is that the Guru, thinking he now knows it all, has lost the ability to learn.  When a person degenerates to that stage, his or her opinions become pretty much worthless.

It can be frustrating to answer the same questions again & again.  Naturally no one is forced to do so, but I think almost every dedicated audiophool out there has been helped along at some point by someone who knew more than they did.  That's almost the definition of the word "community."  Audio & video have become immensely complex nowadays, and gone are the times when you could safely drop out for a few years confident your understanding would still be current when you come back.  It's a constant struggle to keep up with the changing technologies, and it's great to be able to avail oneself of other peoples experiences.  Who here can afford to buy everything to try it out?  Only a moron or an extremely wealthy gearhead would attempt to science it all out using brute force.

It's a free country, and no one is forced to "give anything back" to their community, but I think it's important to do so anyway.  You can use AC to preach to the choir, but you can also use it to spread your knowledge to those who don't understand yet.  Humans would still be living in caves now if we didn't pass on what we'd learned to the next generation.