[flavo]

I've been reading up a bunch on treatments. It's still a bit confusing but the more I read the more it will sink in.
I've got some special circumstances going on, in that I use OB speakers and my room is oddly shaped.
I ordered a case of OC703 yesterday and I have the needed skills to DIY what ever.
This is my newly dedicated HT room.
I just removed the couch in favor of a couple of Poang chairs and slid the coffee table between them.  The sonic difference was pretty depressing, and I wasn't that impressed to begin with
I had a pretty decent wall of sound but I want more separation. I really want the best I can get away with.
The speakers are Hawthorne Audio and are still in test baffle stage until I figure out what I'm doing with the room visually.
I'm also looking for a large area rug.

Should I mostly ignore the opposite end of this room? It's roughly 15x35 and the ceiling height in the center is 6'5"
My office is at the opposite end.
Am I going to leave the front wall alone because of the OB? Just put a bass trap in the 1st corner?
That ceiling! Can I make it work for me?
I'm 5'8 so it works OK for me.
Also I can alter where I sit if needed. Meaning I could move the electronics to where the extra speakers are currently. Maybe even put the electronics where the couch is? Or use the short wall instead?

That V in the ceiling to the right is a hall way to another room.

Is there somewhere I might be able to turn to for semi professional help online in designing what I need to optimize this space?
Thank you so much ahead of time!
Mike

P.S. I just moved into this room and all of it is up for changing.
Bright side is I got a dedicated listening room. So lets focus on the positive. haha

1st pic now has couch replaced by poang (minimal) chairs and a small rug

2nd pic was the next attempt at better sound. I didn't want to rip the whole room apart for the experiment.  The sound stage was even smaller. Not surprising I guess.

[youngho]

Since you already have the OC703 on the way and have DIY skills, you might start by looking at the first picture and:
1. Put lots of absorption on the wall behind the sofa (at least 3-4", preferably 5-6"), as well as the short slanted ceiling immediately above that (3-4", since more might be harder, but you might be able to construct a wooden frame and mount with Z-clips?). It's hard to tell how wide that wall is, but you'd probably want at least 4-6' wide absorption behind the listening position.
2. Add lots of absorption (again, minimum 3-4") over as much of that far wall as possible. Since the opposite (near) wall is effectively "missing" or much further away, adding that sidewall absorption may ameliorate the asymmetry.
3. Consider constructing diffusers to go behind the speakers (Siegfried Linkwitz argues that the back wave of open baffle designs should be diffused, not absorbed). You can find free plans at http://arqen.com/

I believe that your two biggest priorities should be to create some acoustic approximation of symmetry, as well as heavily absorb the very nearby rear reflections.

Young-Ho

[dB Cooper]

Talk about a room that was MADE for headphones.... 

On a (slightly) more serious note, this might be the exact WRONG space for an open baffle approach... Something that would interact with the room less and allow you to at least get one 'sweet spot' right, I'm thinking single driver perhaps? This room looks like the acoustical equivalent of 'a great face for radio'. Good luck

[JLM]

Please clarify: 

- What do you mean by wanting more separation?

- Had a pretty decent "wall of sound"?

- Really want "the best I can get away with"?


It appears that you're trying to marry existing (big sounding) speakers with existing (small) room.  As you state, at least it's your own room.

I support the absorption behind/above listener, diffusion behind speakers ideas (but diffusion is hard to do).  I'd pull the listening spot out farther into the room.


I like your dog!

[Guy 13]

Mr. Flavo
there are some AudioCircle members more knowledgeabl than me here,
I can only say that you definitely need room treatment.
Like JLM I like your dog, but I also like your IKEA Poang chair.
I have two of those.

Guy 13

[flavo]

Thank you everyone for the great comments. Some more colorful then others  haha

I'm a relative noob to adiouphiledom. So when I found OB I was really blown away by the sound I got out of them. That was in a family room, though I think they did about as well up here.
My problem came about basically when I went to my first real audio store on a vacation and I heard a set of speakers in the $10K range. I liked the sound of mine better and the sound stage was about the same.
But I heard more separation between the instruments and vocals. Could have just been the track as I have no idea what it was and the other tracks didn't blow me away like that one did.

So, I'm open to changing speakers, and correct me if I'm wrong. But if I do corrections on this room to account for the OB's and still not get where I want I can always go single FR at that point. Heck, I might build a pair just for the experience.

- Had a pretty decent "wall of sound"? My sound stage was the entire width of the speakers and a little beyond with the vocals coming from center. I assumed I could get more separation of vocals and instruments with some room help though.

- Really want "the best I can get away with"?  I want it to sound as good up here as possible. If that means a speaker change or a wall change, I'm game

diffusion behind speakers ideas (but diffusion is hard to do).   Do you mean hard to do right? Because looking at the diy patterns it seems simple enough to build.

Thanks for the compliments on the pup. We have 3 and she is the laziest 

I look forward to more comments, even spicy ones.

[JLM]

Most A/V advise is to get match timbre of the front left, center, and front right speakers (and ideally the rear channels as well).  I don't see that with your setup.  From your original post I take it that your priority is A/V over audio.

You'll have to decide what "sound as good as possible" means for yourself.  Do you have unlimited time/money?  Can you build a large dedicated custom designed room?  Are you willing to live with a complex inconvenient system? 

Based on your room I'd aim for a conventional 5.1 or so system with monitors and a quality receiver.  Personally I'd avoid a MTM center channel because it locks you into a single horizontal position.  Although I'm a single driver fan, I wouldn't recommend them for an audio video first/audio second system as they lack ultimate output/dynamics. 

I've heard several Hawthorne speakers.  The Silver Iris lack detail but are dynamic and do provide an undefined "wall of sound".  The Sterling Silver Iris offers more detail.

[flavo]

Thanks JLM, my last concern is AV however. That is why it us just thrown together. After I get the 2 channel to my liking I'll focus some time on the AV

[youngho]

Flavo, I wish you the best in your quest. I have no expertise, so I don't plan to comment further in this thread.

Having a listening position close to the rear wall isn't necessarily a bad thing. Google a little about Joachim Gerhard, Audio Physic, and speaker placement or setup to see why. However, I personally think it's worth exploring broadband (which necessitates deep, i.e. 4-6" depth) absorption behind the listening position, as Siegfried Linkwitz (since you have open baffle speakers, it's worth perusing http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html) suggests here: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm#D

Again, from Linkwitz (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/listening_room.htm): "the first requirement is for lateral symmetry of the loudspeaker and listener setup with respect to large reflecting surfaces." This could be achieved either through broadband absorption or through construction of a new sidewall for the left loudspeaker. My impression is that lateral reflections tend to lead to broadening of apparent source width (ASW), whereas the absorption thereof has the opposite effect. Your comment about separation of vocals and instruments suggests to me that you favor the latter. Take a look here for a basic illustration: http://www.wghwoodworking.com/audio/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt2.pdf

Open baffle speakers could theoretically have fewer lateral requirements because of the radiation pattern (but this is not necessarily uniform across the frequency spectrum in practice), though again, I would point you to an expert such as Linkwitz. Open baffle bass may be more difficult to predict in a real-world space, especially a significantly asymmetric one.

True diffusion (uniform scattering in direction and phase/time across a broad range of frequencies) is not trivial to achieve: https://books.google.com/books/about/Acoustic_Absorbers_and_Diffusers.html?id=f19_6NFg4jkC. Such diffusion (as opposed to simple scattering in direction without addressing phase/time) requires depth (ideally 8" or more) and should likely be positioned 3m or 10ft away from the listening position as per professional recommendations (see previously linked book or Floyd Toole's book). 

My own suggestions have been extremely basic and in the context of what you described in your original post, so I hope you find what you're seeking from others, especially the spicier ones. If you're looking for expert consultant advice, please consider Nyal Mellor (http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/) or Jeff Hedback (http://www.hedbackdesignedacoustics.com/).  For expert product advice, please consider the above or GiK Acoustics (www.gikacoustics.com), Real Trap (http://realtraps.com/), or Real Acoustix (http://www.realacoustix.com/Home.html).

Happy listening,

Young-Ho

[SteveRB]

I've done a lot of open baffle over the years; I'm not sure you are going to get that you are looking for out of open baffles. They don't always do the 'audiophile separation' thing. But they are fun nonetheless. And someone was right, there is less side wall reflections to worry about.

Sitting with 6" of absorption behind your head is not going to work. It's going to sound like you have a pillow over your face: all the liveliness will be gone.

Your room is actually really beautiful. It will be a great space once dialed in.

Diffuse behind OB speakers is required. It will fill in a bit of the radiation pattern the OBs have. They will sound 'bigger'.

You're baffle looks like it's bending a bit. I read that this is a test baffle, so I would recommend bracing the baffle as much as possible. Really make sure that it is stiff. That will help with the focus of the music.

I would try flipping your room 180°. That steep diagonal ceiling could be messing with your ears. Your speakers may be able to sit under where the ceiling is at it's highest point. You can experiment with adsorption  or diffusion on that steep section.

I would also attempt something a bit more near field. Pull the sofa off the wall a bit more. You may find that gives a bit more depth to the sound stage. One manufacturer recommends that listener and the speakers should be 1/3 or 1/5 of the way into the room. That is, if the speakers are 1/3 your chair should be 1/5, or vice versa.

There's a general 'rule' for treatments. All surfaces (walls, floor, ceiling) should be covered by 20% broad-band absorption 20% diffraction. Take that with a grain of salt when when listening to advice and experimenting ...

[JLM]

Diffusion is hard to do simply because of the sizes of sound-waves involved.  To diffuse the texture of the diffusion has to be at least half as large as the sound-waves you're trying to effect.  (Sound-waves are 13,200 inches long per Hertz, so a 2,000 Hz signal is 6.6 inches long and the diffusion would have to be at least 3.3 inches deep.)

Give your ear some time to acclimate.  As suggested, play around with positioning. 

[brother love]

I agree with SteveRB re: pulling the couch/ listening position from the back wall.

Investing in a microphone/ tripod & utilizing free software like REW- Room EQ Wizard is money/ time well spent in helping your cause.

Cardas is an excellent source for near field listening room set-up:

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

[SteveRB]

I would not get too hung up on balancing the room, as in the large area to one side. Microphone and software are great for determining large issues. But Your ears and brain work well to block out long delay reflections. Crazy echos, yes, get rid of those.

I would concentrate on placement and dealing with the immediate listener speaker area.

Also, the Hawthorns are impactful and musical. They are not going to be crazy good at the real fine line audiophile details.

[SteveRB]

topical

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation

[youngho]

From the link to Toole's article on Audioholics: "I do not have first lateral reflections in my current listening room – one wall is missing, and the opposite one is heavily draped for symmetry." Topical, indeed.

[flavo]

Thank you everyone. Some real pearls in here I'm sure. I'm so far away from understanding some of it that Toole's great link was a bit hard for me. I skimmed through and will look at it again though.
Just reading this thread a few times so far has helped me.
I'm going to continue working on room acoustics and most likely build a set of full rangers. Maybe horns or the like.
Here is where I am at as of last night. The sound is back to as good as it was if not better, from when I removed my couch and things got ugly.
I know the rug is too small. It was a cheap band aid until I can find one that I really like.

[flavo]

I found these articles on room acoustics yesterday. They were much easier for me to understand and I thought some other folks like me might find them helpful.

http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm

http://www.decware.com/acroom.htm

http://www.decware.com/paper39.htm

http://www.decware.com/newsite/room.html

[JLM]

I've been in Steve's reference room but sorry can't tell you how it sounds because the vinyl surface noise was horrible (I'm very sensitive to surface noise).  It's a tiny room so near-field listening is a given.