[SteveRB]

I laughed at the FAQ on his site he uses to justify the high costs:

   "Someone has to drive to a record store, dig through the bins for hour upon hour, have them all cleaned, file them and then wait... for the pile of copies on the shelf to get big enough to do a proper shootout.

Shootouts are a two man job: one person plays the record and someone else... listens for as long as it takes...Then we start the whole process over again for side two."

Like this is work?! I just spent the entire weekend doing this my friends, it was awesome.


That said, he seems to be doing well at it... whether or not it's moral is another matter.

[SteveRB]

Seems like a legit and honest  business model to me.

There is nothing legit or honest about this.

[*Scotty*]

His business model is 100% legit and moral. See link to his return policy. Cut and pasted here

What is the return policy?

Hot Stampers may be returned for full credit for any reason within thirty days of purchase. We are happy to refund 100% of your payment directly to your credit card or Paypal account upon receipt of the record, no questions asked.

Please do not return any record until you have contacted us about the problem. When returning records, we ask that you follow the packing and shipping instructions listed below.

http://www.better-records.com/showpages.asp?pid=1032#policy
With the right to return a record you don't like for a full refund you can't really complain about how he does business.
Scotty

[cheech]

Guess if people want to pay his prices then he'll charge what the market will bear; if people cared enough not to pay them then he wouldn't be able to charge what he does.  Fortunately for me I'm not one of those willing to do so

[SteveRB]

wait a minute... Charging what the market will bear, does not make an activity moral or legit.

Used rock records have an established value; we all have decades of experience to know how much his inventory should normally sell for. He says himself: most records are bought at $5-$20. He then assigns a value to them to say that he has found special pressings. The value he assigns is arbitrary based on 'years of experience'. There is no measurable metric. There is no industry standard to balance his claims that some are worth more than others. There is only this man's word. There isn't even any competition to balance the market for 'hot stampers' because he coined the term. By this standard: he can't be wrong.

And all this by definition isn't shady; yet, ...but it is a recipe for snake oil.

Now, with the 'white-hot-stampers', he then marks up the product from 10 to 100 times the 'fair market' price. This is where it breaks down. He did nothing to the LP other than clean it and listen to it. There is no reason, other than his assigned and immeasurable value to justify a 100x markup. Just because people are willing to pay the price and are not bound by the sale does not make it justified.

Example: If there are two containers of milk in the store, one from a major chain and one from a local organic farm, there is a perceived and generally accepted value from the local organic product, and their costs to produce the product is higher; therefore, there is justification for the 30% markup one pays. If the local organic farmer's product has a 10,000% markup, just because he says he has special cows -- that farmer will go to jail.

With records it is different. I get it. But we all know the hifi industry has a tendency to prey on customers insecurities and in-experience with constant up-grades, glowing reviews and 'power crystals'. But if he was calling up old ladies on fixed incomes and selling $500 'hot-stamper Tupperware' -- he'd go to jail.

Didn't anyone see Wolf of Wall Street?! If you take penny stocks and sell them for more than they're worth, just because you convince someone there is added value -- you go to jail.

Didn't anyone see The Big Short?! If you sell houses and mortgages for more than they're worth because the 'market will bear it' -- you collapse the world economy, you're a huge jerk, and you go to jail.


I'm being a little young in cheek here, because these are just records and no one is forcing you to buy them. It's ridiculous. But it is immoral and probably not fully legal. Just because some people buy them and say 'hey, I think this is better too' doesn't make it so.     

But I'm not accusing anyone of anything here. Just saying.

[S Clark]

But isn't this the same thing as asking $5 for a VG+ copy, $10 for a NM- copy, $20 for a true NM, and $50 for a NM low stamper- just on a higher scale?  I see this type pricing every time I shop for a jazz or classical lp.
I see nothing wrong with asking a higher price for higher quality.  The rest is just hageling over price.  You don't want to pay $400 for a "super" Synchonicity??  No problem... don't buy it.  Just don't get bent out of shape because somebody else disagrees with your concept of value.

[SteveRB]

But isn't this the same thing as asking $5 for a VG+ copy, $10 for a NM- copy, $20 for a true NM, and $50 for a NM low stamper- just on a higher scale?  I see this type pricing every time I shop for a jazz or classical lp.
I see nothing wrong with asking a higher price for higher quality.  The rest is just hageling over price.  You don't want to pay $400 for a "super" Synchonicity??  No problem... don't buy it.  Just don't get bent out of shape because somebody else disagrees with your concept of value.

not exactly. The grading scale your describing (VG, VG++) is based on an established standard: The Goldmine standard. See link:

http://www.goldminemag.com/collector-resources/record-grading-101

This is a third party standard that dealers more-or-less agree on when they say 'VG'. The standard is also not based on which ones are simply and arbitraraly 'the best'. It is based on amount of damage, dirt and ware the record and it's sleeve has. You are not paying for added quality; you are paying for less damage. Remember, these are used items of unknown life cycles. The standard says for a NM copy: this one is most likely to be in as good condition as when it was new... The Goldmine standard, while not perfect, is described; measurable; and most importantly, repeatable by other people. Also, GoldMine does not make a profit by selling highly graded records that other people don't have the experience or time to grade properly. 

The white-hot-stamper has no such standard. One man just decided they are better and he makes a huge profit when selling them.

I'm not bent out of shape so much as frustrated, like when know people don't pay their taxes or something. it's just crummy to see people take advantage of other people like this. It hits home because I like records. 

[jsaliga]

I agree with you Steve.  I bumped into that site about 10 years ago and concluded it was a rip-off.  Nothing but hyped up claims that cannot be proven to induce audiophiles to part with a lot of cash.  This is probably where the $5,000 audio interconnect guys got the idea to charge stupid money for cables in the first place.   

What he calls a hot stamper is what I call a good pressing.  I have lots of them in my record collection and I didn't pay blood money for any of them.

--Jerome

[NIGHTFALL1970]

I agree with Steve.  The same thing happens with comics that have been "graded and slabbed" by CGC.  You are NOT getting an unbiased "opinion" of a books grade.
I.E. if someone sends a book to CGC and they don't give it the grade that the customer WANTS,  then they won't send any more books to them and then CGC won't make any money.  There is a built in reason to grade a book higher.

This guy is artificially driving up the prices of everything.  This is very aggravating to collectors who really care about the hobby.  With both comics and records you have people in the business who don't really give a rats ass about music or comics.  They are just trying to gouge collectors.  It's no wonder that music is a dying hobby among young people.  They can't afford the prices so they move on to other things.

[undertow]

Alright... I will make a PUBLIC offering right now.

Because I started this I will make good on my end.

http://www.better-records.com/product.aspx?pf_id=who__quadr_1604

I will pay the price of $850.00 for The Who with 3 stipulations...

1- a top shelf bottle of scotch is packed in the box with it
2- a half ounce gold bar is packed in the box with it
3- a gift certificate to my local escort service is packed in the box with it

Not only can I make a good night out of it while listening to this magical album, but in fact they will still make a very nice 50 dollar profit on this 15 dollar used album to pay for their cleaning, and scouting services!!!

That is a win, win scenario for everybody. The credit card is ready so I won't hold my breath, but hoping for the best night of my life to come...

Oh and actually I will open this offer to ANYBODY willing to ship me the above package for the price so you can make a nice profit. And I won't even care if the album is not the "Best Hot stamper" on the planet

[G E]

this services caters to those with scant free time but with considerable resources. There is nothing wrong with this business model.

Even new vinyl is a crap shoot. I went through 4 orders of Beatles in Mono before getting discs I can live with.

I have a handful of online vendors whose judgement and ratings I trust. It's not unusual for me to pay $40-$100 for a prize. I'm not in white hot stamper territory but I understand what they offer.