[kyrill]

people who buy finished (much) more expensive products in shops or on line-shops and people who buy DIY kits maybe two completely different markets. If so they do not share needs and values. Beneficial feautures for one market will not necessarily motivate the other market for  making a purchase..

I would not even suggests to retail purchasers the family resemblance with DIY kits by giving it a total different name.

[Seano]

When it comes down to it, Hugh would be quite silly to offer any further upgrades on the kit GK-1's or for that matter on any other DIY version of the developed AKSA product that is intended for retail sale.

Given that the retail release of the Swift is relatively immenant and the fact that it will cost substantially more to purchase than the R kit version, Hugh will need all the points of difference he can muster between the retail and kit versions to quantify/justify the price difference. Since the retail version will always be the premium product then it must have the premium performance......no question.  

And without a (reasonably successful) retail version of a select range of Aspen product then Hugh is facing a future where he will not be in a position to sustainably support the rest of us in our strange little hobby.  It's that simple.  At this point, Aspen either grows and develops a retail presence or stops all further development and rests on its laurels.

If those of us with GK-1's already want something better then we are probably going to have to have to develop and build it ourselves.....

And this leaves me to wonder where the power amps can still go in terms of performance........

[Rod]

I agree Seano.

With the amount of R&D that Hugh has put into these kits it would almost be a shame for him to not benefit with financial rewards beyond a few % points above cost as the kits are now.

There is also the issue of the quality of the equipment and the ethos under which it has been developed.  I think it would be hard not to agree that it is outstanding equipment that sounds fantastic.  I think from this perspective it needs to compete in a retail environment. Kit builders are aware of the good thing they are on with this equipment, why shouldn't the general retail public be?

As far as where the amps can go - I think they can go anywhere they want!  Based on Hugh's comments about it's technical maturity the next stage is probably more business related in the areas of Marketing and QA in retail unit production.

[andyr]

Given that the retail release of the Swift is relatively immenant and the fact that it will cost substantially more to purchase than the R kit version, Hugh will need all the points of difference he can muster between the retail and kit versions to quantify/justify the price difference. Since the retail version will always be the premium product then it must have the premium performance......no question.

And without a (reasonably successful) retail version of a select range of Aspen product then Hugh is facing a future where he will not be in a position to sustainably support the rest of us in our strange little hobby. It's that simple. At this point, Aspen either grows and develops a retail presence or stops all further development and rests on its laurels.

If those of us with GK-1's already want something better then we are probably going to have to have to develop and build it ourselves.....

And this leaves me to wonder where the power amps can still go in terms of performance........
 ...

Mmmm, Sean, I suspect there's a bit of symbiosis happening here and it's not quite so clearcut!  

Without a successful presence in the marketplace - albeit amongst weirdo DIYers - a "retail" AKSA product is just YAUAP ("yet another unproven audio product") which will find it difficult to compete from a standing start.  Having a group of customers who sing its praises on a Forum such as this gives a retail product a running start.

While I certainly agree with you that "the retail version (of the GK-1) will always be the premium product so it must have the premium performance", the fact that there are many happy (DIY) GK-1 owners out there gives "cred" to the GK-1 for a retail buyer contemplating buying it in preference to the 1001 other pre-amps out there in the marketplace.

A successful retail product needs "sex as well as sizzle" ... ie. visual appeal as well as (relative) excellent performance.  The retail GK-1 certainlky has this and looks far more beautiful than my 19" rack mounted GK-1 and should therefore do a good job of seduction.  However, the proof of this pudding is "in the listening" and I would've thought sales of the retail GK-1 would only be helped by an on-going level of "tweaking" activity happening by the DIY owners.

The N+ versions of the AKSA amps which Hugh sells came into being because of the symbiosis between the DIYers who were using different components to tweak their original standard amps - with some help from Hugh - in their never-ending search for audio Nirvana and Hugh deciding he could - and should - make a quid out of an AKSA upgrade path.  All the DIY AKSA experimenters are kinda like all those millions of "Open Source" computer programmers in the software game.

In terms of "where the power amps can still go in terms of performance?" ... I suspect it needs circuit tweaks now, rather than any more component swaps, to go to the next level.  

Maybe a sexy looking retail AKSA N+ should be the next thing on Hugh's drawing board ... no, wait, didn't I hear there's a DAC coming out??  

Regards,

Andy

[kyrill]

Mmmm, Sean, I suspect there's a bit of symbiosis happening here and it's not quite so clearcut!  

I agree with Andy, it is not so clear cut
Without a successful presence in the marketplace - albeit amongst weirdo DIYers - a "retail" AKSA product is just YAUAP ("yet another unproven audio product") which will find it difficult to compete from a standing start.  Having a group of customers who sing its praises on a Forum such as this gives a retail product a running start.
Yes, but people who buy retail products do not visit DIY forums. There will be a circle of "friends" around the GK-1 DIY who never will think about soldering but some of these will be interested in a finished GK-1 as explained below by Andy
While I certainly agree with you that "the retail version (of the GK- will always be the premium product so it must have the premium performance", the fact that there are many happy (DIY) GK-1 owners out there gives "cred" to the GK-1 for a retail buyer contemplating* buying it in preference to the 1001 other pre-amps out there in the marketplace.
Valid, but this population is very very small. The circle of people who are really intested in a retail product and who have, while not being a DIY, contacts with us

A successful retail product needs "sex as well as sizzle" ... ie. visual appeal as well as (relative) excellent performance. The retail GK-1 certainlky has this and looks far more beautiful than my 19" rack mounted GK-1 and should therefore do a good job of seduction. However, the proof of this pudding is "in the listening" and I would've thought sales of the retail GK-1 would only be helped by an on-going level of "tweaking" activity happening by the DIY owners.
An important point. You do not buy an expensive amp on sight alone. You listen to it first or you trust a source. This forum as a source will practically not reach them(wrong public), so a second source must be relative expensive marketing or publications on the net, preferably a well known publication, that must be repeated from time to time to refresh markets memory. The tweaking is a no no for retail buyers, they are not tweakers. They are retail tweakers. (feet, IC power line etc.)  Look at your retail buying friends, do they tweak in the form of soldering?  Why buy most retailers in a shop? For servicing. They carry their broken expensive unit to the shop. How can you replace this on the net? What to do if you not live in Australia?

What about DIY customers. Can they be deduced to buy a complete retail product in marketing interested numbers? They are DIY in the first place and if they do, how significant will be their numbers?
Another point is the link between the retail product and the "DIY GK-1"
Most retail buyers are not technical at all and a little naïve. They* do not  think highly about "kits" or even worse the high praise kit builders praise their own kits. I have been there


T

Maybe a sexy looking retail AKSA N+ should be the next thing on Hugh's drawing board ... no, wait, didn't I hear there's a DAC coming
Retail products are heavy!!  
out??

So what would you  do if you were director of Aspen?

[DSK]

Kyrill, AndyR et al make good points. And yes, retail and DIY are almost completely different markets. However, there is a crossover element. I for one have nevermade a single solder joint, yet I have mysteriously ended up with a GK-1 and AKSA 100N+ that replaced my far more expensive BAT tube pre-amp and Plinius class A power amp, and my system has never sounded this good.  

It is never easy to break into the retail market, but I really do feel that Hugh has already established some cred that will help him in this endeavour. Many readers of the forums (Audio Asylum, Audio Circle, Audiogon etc etc) wouldn't know one end of a soldering iron from the other, but are seeking the holy grail and reading everything they can. Many are probably envious of the reports on DIY gear but don't have friends with soldering skills either, or are apprehensive about kits anyway. However, if they can buy the component assembled by the designer himself, they may be rather tempted... even if it costs them more than the kit. The sonic performance will be superior to almost any other retail component at the same price or even much higher. I've heard $8k components with very well reputed high-end names that couldn't match or surpass the AKSA gear.

No doubt it will be a slow start in the retail market for Hugh, but gradually the word will get out and demand will increase. Take Mick Maloney (Supratech) for instance. He has (or did have) order backlogs of six months and the longest thread (Audiogon) I've ever seen! However, I do know someone who replaced his Supratech pre-amp with a GK-1  

There is no doubt that Hugh's products have the sound quality required to be very competetive in the retail market. It now comes down to packaging, marketing and investment! Personally, I would like nothing more than to see Hugh reap financial reward and success commensurate with the sound quality of his products. Nothing fairer than that.

[kyrill]

In Hugh's function i would just start. Forget the theories and begin to build "my perfect preamp" But I would accept the 2 different markets as a fact of life.

So in the beginning retail potential buyers who already believe the quality of Aspen gear is a start market and will reward maybe in a modest way, the effort for every individual build Aspen preamp. But turnover maybe very low after the first units sold as the beginning market is "saturated"

Also the price cannot probably equal the in shop price of high end products as service is cumbersome.
Unless in case of malfunction the naive non techie buyer does not have to send the whole unit as the preamp has easily detachables modules. (and the effect on sound?)
Or the sending is a cost factor for Aspen as Aspen predicts to have a less than 2 or 1 % return

Maybe copying the US tour AKSA mechanism will help to gather goodwill and a good name and then see what happens as it cannot be predicted for the highest price that is feasible.
The retail preamp is not made to compete with price. Building the unit is no fun  when it becomes your work. I see Hugh as a designer not an assembler. So the aim is to generate a bigger economical resource.

Audionote Japan (audionote.co.jp) delivers hand made products beyond the price of Krells and Mark Levinsons. Then it is rewarding to build the best preamp yourself.
But they are very well known. They attracted from the begining good fame in high end magazines and could be found in very expensive shops backed up by the shopowner who probably earned a fat percentage of the huge price as internet was not so developed by then.

BC (BlueCircle,com) in Canada now selling units beyond 10.000 US dollars, started small and the hard way (lot lot of hours in assembling and stocking and making as much by Gilbert the founder/designer with very good sounding tube units. It is as if expensive units are easier to be accepted  being expensive when you start with a  tube unit, as if for mainstream audio philes tubes must be expensive if they sound good. In order to stay profitable they have a lean and mean production factory with many people involved with fixed salaries and survived the 2 diificult beginning stages of a growing company. Managing and steering a company is a very diferent beast than producing and designing
Also Gibert Yeung started in the US with a market of millions of possible buyers  and then moved to Canada after  he already had a name, if I remember well.

I am sure Hugh is very well aware of all this (beginning) difficulties but I only question the effectivess of his seems so logical to do approach of with holding a N+ upgrade path of the GK-1 asif  kit and retail buyers can be seen as one market.  
Another approach is to emphasize (not "hide") the retail preamp with the DIY kits
I would then publicly answer the retail buyers needs for security,  expressed in their interest for the reliability of the product ( build/supervised by the master himself) maximum quality within the product as opposed to the kit version, meaning it is tweaked and build as it should be All this linked to the background of Aspen DIY kits.
Of course you pay more for all these extra's including a beautiful enclosure. That will do it. Not necessary is the promise it will sound better by a better design as the retail buyer was never thinking of a kit. This will also in a way honour the "base" of Aspen: the DIY community, who could not actually afford an equal sounding retail product. As an extra I would offer an upgrade path for the future, so it will "never" be obsolete .

All this however must be known beforehand, before you buy it and why you should buy it instead of  another easier to get brand X.
As DSK ( Benny in a way too?) represents a mysterious market with his  words: "..yet I have mysteriously ended up"

What would help Aspen and reinforce your good judgement is to let different people hear (including non DIY) periodically your own "Aspen" system
That will help

[Lost81]

Adding my 1.8 cents here,
I think the way Nelson Pass is conducting his business might be a good area to research upon: i.e. http://www.passlabs.com still honors its DIY roots and community by having http://www.passdiy.com

Note that the X and XA series are not available as kit sets.
(Neither is the Rushmore )


-Lost81

[AKSA]

This thread is very interesting, and I thank all participating.  I'm learning!

Indeed, what would YOU do if you were the Director of Aspen?  I've had so many suggestions I'm suffering paralysis by analysis!!     Let me set down a few thoughts.

1.  The forward direction of all companies is controlled by the CEO.  He must be a strategic thinker and he must be hungry.  Some years ago I suffered a health crisis, and I see the world very differently to the usual adversarial CEO.  Neither am I hungry.  This puts a very different picture on things.

2.  I enjoy the complete control I have over Aspen.  This includes the power to vacillate, muck around, and otherwise delay important decisions!     I am not a good team worker, particularly where my intellectual property is involved, though I'm a good boss.  Joint ventures are OK, but partnerships are out, though I'm pretty sure I could run a business with Ben Williams, who is an exceptional man in every sense.

3.  Although I'm quite good with my hands, I prefer not to do too much assembly work.  Long hours standing with my head tilted down causes me a lot of discomfort.  There is a need for some assembly at Aspen, particularly with retail products, but some of it I hope to sub-contract out.  

4.  There should be only a tenuous link between the DIY and the retail Aspen products.  These are two different markets, and they should be differentiated.  A new website is needed.  Retail buyers will expect that the plug and play version will be technically superior to the DIY market, because in their eyes DIY is the bottom end of the market, with little design cred.  The irony is that the DIY end of the market has by far the best technical understanding;  you guys are SMART, and this poses another issue when selling a retail product;  effective marketing, which is only loosely related to technical issues, as you all realize!  

5.  FCC and UL/CE accreditation, required for any retail product, is a fair obstacle.  Sooner or later the $US20K or so required must be invested.  This is a very real barrier for Aspen but I'm working on it.....

6.  The many selling models in the net - my chosen medium - are instructive.  Let me give my views on a few of them.
# Audionote -  expensive, hand built, DIY background, widely advertised in the audio press but now dying because of apparent inability to move overly expensive product in the internet age.
# Pass - one of the most astute operators of all, relies on simple is best, brilliant innovator, tightly managed family company in CA with a huge DIY and forum commitment.  His very latest technology is only sold plug and play at high prices, released to the DIY fraternity two or three years later.  Holds many patents, zealously defended.  Wonderful businessman.
# Supratek - very well marketed, 'snob bespoke value' approach exceptionally well produced at low cost by the driven, highly motivated Michael Maloney who elicits a lot of design input for his products.  Reputed to have sold over 900 preamps and amps in the last two years.
# Hagerman - one of the finest audio engineers I have seen with brilliant designs at very low cost, sadly he MUST increase prices to survive and prosper but his engineering background at Tek and HP and thorough decency may not permit him to see this.


All these business models are fascinating studies.  The best of them are Pass and Supratek, with my own outfit probably best advised to follow the latter.  Interestingly, I once received an email from a Supratek customer asking me how Mick's circuits work;  this is a deep irony, because I had a big hand in the power supply in his preamp!

Recently I read a book on Nikola Tesla, a Croatian hero of mine who died in NYC in 1942 after more than 50 years in the States.  His scientific work in 1900 at Colorado Springs formed the basis of atmospheric electromagnetic physics.  He devised the AC mains grid system, and fought bitterly with Thomas Edison over the patents, and invented the AC induction motor which was exploited at Tesla's expense by George Westinghouse.  A brilliant, egoistic and cultured man, whose knowledge of art was encyclopaedic and who spoke seven languages.  But he had not a clue about business;  his is a life worth examining on how NOT to become a good businessman.  He was completely disinterested in business, and it ultimately destroyed him.

Whatever course I take, I will always have a long-standing, committed interest in the DIY crowd.  I am essentially an Open Source designer, just as Andy Redwood identified.  I find I am intensely stimulated by the debate, the comment, the pleasure my products bring to others, and the general ethos of DIY.  Although originally trained as a science teacher, long, discursive emails on audio philosophy can tax me a little from time to time, but I do enjoy it and I love the keyboard, so as long as I can make a moderate income I'm happy.  If you know any trustworthy business venture capitalists (now there's an oxymoron!), point 'em my way, I might have something they could make a lot of money with!    

Cheers,

Hugh

[pea]

does not in anyway resemble the mind of a DIY customer.

Having worked in retail for a number of years I can attest to the fact that hardcore retail buyers - WANT IT NOW!! Even if a retail customer knew someone who owned a soldering iron, they wouldn't want to wait. They would rather spend the dough to get an immediate audio fix NOW.

DIY'ers and retail buyers live in seperate universes for the most part. Of course you do have a little cross-over, but the streams rarely cross otherwise.

A shrewed business person would milk the heck out of both markets. A retail product does not mutually exclude the same product in DIY form. Retail buyers are more than happy to pay big premiums for speed, convenience, status and peace-of-mind.  I think Hugh could have it boths ways, the DIY version and a boxed retail GK-1 that he charged 3x, 5x, etc. over the DIY version and be able to sell plenty of both.

Just my opinion, of course I could be wrong  

Bruce

[Seano]

Blimey I did give the jar a little shake.........

I should point out that, at no time, has Hugh (as far as I'm aware) suggested that he won't offer an upgrade path for the current DIY product he produces.

However, I suggested previously in this post that he shouldn't. And I still believe that this is the case. If we as the Aspen DIY community want further upgrades then we are going to have to devise them ourselves.  No doubt Hugh will be involved (he can't help himself!) but, with the advent of retail product, there is no commercial sense in Aspen offering additional  commercial upgrades for DIY product.  Better for Hugh to offer those upgrades in the retail product if possible. If we want to upgrade then this is the forum to do it and we are the people to manage it.  That said it won't be this bunny who dreams up any further upgrades - I'm gonna go to school on the techies this place attracts!!

One part of the equation where Hugh WILL lose big time in the retail will be in the further development.  The main reason being is that circuit design will have to change for the retail product. Once Hugh has done that then, unless he makes a concerted effort not to, the retail product is isolated from the same cheap R&D that the DIY community has offered to get the Aspen product this far. And I suspect Hugh is very aware of this...

Personally, I don't envy Hugh his business at all.  I just hope he stays with the products he's made and becomes a valuble player in the Oz hi-fi market and, from there, into the world.

Hey Hugh!  What about the 'Redgum' business model?

[kyrill]

i hesitate a little bit to bring this to the foreground as it is not yet a mainstream acceptable idea and does not have an obvious link with audio.  It will be  more at home (in time) in the philosophical dimension behind or beyond (?) post modernism (PM). I teach PM and social constructionism (only because i believe in it !)  at the university of Rotterdam in MBA studies. Beyond PM is however the theory of unity or "holism" as if reality is one "gestalt".
Autopoiesis and PM leads to this one gestalt: All living systems are connected as one.
To make sense of  this in praxis it means Reality will deliver what you think it to be.
Life experience will have the tendency to give you right, meaning it will proof to you, your beliefsystems including your ideas about chance are right., be your beliefs logical or not. This is what you will experience.

This seems not rational in the dimension  of  sensory perceptive reality, BUT only  from the standpoint of the observer ( the observer as a 3rd unit, object and its relevant environment are the firts two units) observing the life of others. It is very true however for the personal experienced reality of the observer himself. Now s/he is not observer anymore but becomes the vehicle of his own (very) subjective experience following and expressing his own beliefs

In short, we will experience the reality we basically believe in. This is also true for group or organizational believing.
This is true for Aspen and its founder as well.
may the force be with you, as it will follow yr heart
 

[EchiDna]

In response to Hugh's request for input.... as a fictional "director of Aspen"
1, I'd aim for a permanant US presence ASAP, even if it was fictional - i.e. a mail order house with free delivery service. I dunno what the percentages of worldwide audiophiles location are, but at least online, 70%+ of the population seem to be from the US (on English speaking sites).

2, get the full range out as retail products in good looking, consistant, high quality chassis - maybe with a trusted support person in Europe and the US for transformer installing to save on shipping weights. As nice as the 'Hugh special' chassis goes for the AKSA amps, it just won't cut it in the commercial world with so many competitors. I feel many commerical amps probably spend more on the chassis than the amp itself.

3, Improve the webpage into a modern design that looks more 'corporate'- yeah Aspen may be a one man (and a few part timers) show, but it's image as much as quality of product that sells the gear in the commercial world

4, Learn more about the 'opposition' for example - take a look at the commerical offerings from Plinius and/or Perreaux - small NZ companies who were not THAT dissimilar to Aspen is only a few years back.

5, Reverse engineer the business model of the companies the directors like - ie, Passlabs etc etc...

6, Take the time to pick the brains of us mob... hmm... Hugh you are already doing this - good job!  

oh there is more, so I guess I'll edit all that in at a later time  

[lonewolfny42]

Might there be a GK-1 audition tour in the future....just wondering after reading all the positive comments.....

Chris[/list:u]

[SamL]

OK since I am the "Director" (thank goodness I am not), I will be as direct as one can be.
Before doing anything make sure you know what market range you plan to enter. If you plan to enter the Krill, Pass, Plinius range than your product not only need to sound good (not a problem here), it need to have drop dead look, both outside and inside. You be very surprise how many reviewer/retailer/buyer will open the box and judge it by its  internal layout. The current AKSA product although very functional for DIY, it is not an eye candy for the rest. A hand solder copper plate as heat sink and Cat5 cable although are good for DIY, they will not received the same regards from the retail market.  The retails product’s PCB needs to design for the view point of tidiness, easy soldering and fast assemble. A 30min saving per machine is nothing for a DIY but it  can be a big deal when you have 100 to build. Big name component like BlackGate, WIMA, Vishay. Caddock and WBT is almost a must nowadays for high end product.
At the highend price range, you can’t expect a lot of Internet buyer. You need retails shop to push the product and be prepared to spend a lot of time visiting your dealers. It took Plinius many years of canvassing to gain acceptance to US retails market. It took them equally long for their amp to reviewed by audio magazine.
If you plan to sell mainly through internet, then you should look at Norh or OutlawAudio. Norh is out of US and is doing well in US market.
I personally see DIY market as an asset. Buyer and builder are direct and don’t hit around the bush. Quality product will attract quality supporter. It is the ideal place to test the market with new product and technology. Feed back from the builder can help to enhance product stability and quality. It also help pay for the cost of R&D.
Another problem with retail product is the 1 years or more warranty. It mean that your product needs to be “idiot prove”.  Replacing  a 10c resistor may be an easy task for DIY, it can be a big financial disaster for a retail product.

Well, guess that's all it is. Not easy being a director..
All the best,
Sam

[TimS]

I'm firmly convinced that a large proportion of potential buyers will base their decision to buy any piece of audio equipment from reading published reviews from audio magazine's and the like.  If I was selling the GK-1 I would be sending it to online sites such as 6moons.com and  TNT-audio.com for review.   A positive review would be worth its weight in gold IMHO.

Tim