I think my brain is going to explode

rodge827 · « **Reply #20 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 11:50 am »

Paul,
Perhaps a general location of where you are?
AC has members all over the globe and could direct you to a good dealer, or audio equipment maker in your area?

Chris

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #21 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 11:54 am »

I'm so disappointed in you people. This is the Cheap and Cheerful circle and not one of you has recommended a cheap amplifier that meets guidelines. It's not the OP that placed his post in the wrong circle, it's everyone else spending other people's money. How about the Folsom amp, the various 3116 amps, amps from Class D audio, etc. How about some good quality older used amps. The whole idea here is hifi on the cheap, not the first thing that pops into your head regardless of cost, c'mon folks, let's get creative.

JLM · « **Reply #22 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 12:46 pm »

Nice speakers!

Not sure they'll quite reproduce bass guitar the way you want though (rated to go down to 55 Hz). As I understand they'll thrive with lots of power (rated to handle 25 - 120 watts) and average efficiency (86 dB/w/m). So I wouldn't go small on the amp.

Recommend scouring Audiogon, Canuck Audio Mart, Craig's List, and the Trading Post here for good matches (more than good deals). If you want to go new, the Crown 1500 has been a low cost/high output favorite around here, but I'd look into ClassDaudio amps too (better built but a bit more expensive, and IMO better sounding). Going new will preclude any sort of quality tube amps to stay near your budget.

Take your time and take care.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #23 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 01:30 pm »

+1 on the Crown XLS 1500 (or the more modern XLS 1502).

I can afford much more. I don't bother. It is a good amp overall, and when I factor the value I simply stopped looking at amps.

You will of course need a volume control as it is a power amp, not an integrated.

I have heard good things about Folsom's small amp, but have never heard one myself.

Firejedi · « **Reply #24 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 02:35 pm »

Quote from: Letitroll98 on 23 Mar 2016, 11:54 am

I'm so disappointed in you people. This is the Cheap and Cheerful circle and not one of you has recommended a cheap amplifier that meets guidelines. It's not the OP that placed his post in the wrong circle, it's everyone else spending other people's money. How about the Folsom amp, the various 3116 amps, amps from Class D audio, etc. How about some good quality older used amps. The whole idea here is hifi on the cheap, not the first thing that pops into your head regardless of cost, c'mon folks, let's get creative.

You hit the nail on the head. I haven't been able to find some of the cheaper amps. I know my speakers are limited on the bass side (nature of the beast) but I do have a cheap sub which fills in nicely. Having been a receiver guy most of m y life, I am trying to understand what all is needed to make a system work. If I get a power amp, will I need a pre-amp? Where do I find the Folsom amps, and other class D amps? There are so many options talked about here on AC that it makes it difficult to know where to start. I am sure that is the question of the ages.

I have been watching Craigslist, etc, but I don't always know what I am looking at.

I really appreciate all the input, and please know that if you mention a particular amp that I have most likely went searching for info about it immediately. I am excited about getting something new, but trying to make the best choice possible. Thats why Im here.

Thanks again.

JLM · « **Reply #25 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 03:40 pm »

A receiver is simply a combination of tuner (why bother with internet music streaming?), preamp (volume control, maybe tone controls, maybe phonograph preamp, source selector), and power amp. Typical receivers now-a-days are built for home theater and to a price point. So power ratings are overstated, RCA connections have been replaced with HDMI, and quality suffers for the sake of lots of processing features as they try to reach out to an uninformed market. Even back in the day when receivers were better suited for 2 channel use all that combined circuitry could cause shielding problems and in inevitably one of the three parts would outshine the others (justifications for separate components).

Yes, with a power amp some sort of volume control is needed (note the ClassDaudio amps do have separate left/right volume controls on the back and the Crown 1500/1502 has them on the front). Pretty hair shirt (reaching behind the amp and requiring plugging multiple sources in and out) but it will work. If you don't want to use their controls you could try stepped attenuators (potentially high quality volume controls that plug into the interconnects) but again you'd need to plug/unplug multiple sources in and out (and they work best plugged directly into the back of the amp).

With low capacitance interconnects to the power amp you could try using a passive preamp (that are cheaper). I had a $300 Channel Island Audio passive preamp years ago. Another option is to buy a DAC/preamp. I had an Emotiva DC-1 ($400 - 500 depending on their routine sales) last year that performed admirably well as a DAC, preamp, and headphone amp. With completely serviceable Blue Jean cables you'd have DAC, preamp, headphone amp, and plenty of power for under a grand.

Another option is a modern integrated amp. Classic integrates have preamp and power amp in one case. Money is saved sharing one cabinet/power supply, but again if/when you out grow the features of either the preamp or the power amp you're left needing to swap out both. Modern integrates (like the $799 Peachtree Audio nova65SE or $799 NAD D7050) add DAC and/or headphone amps for under a grand. You'll give up a bit of power but realize the difference between 65 watts and 120 watts (the rated limit of your speakers) is only 3 dB (half again as loud).

Knowledge doesn't come instantly. And if you were lucky enough to fall into a great deal that fits your bill you might not appreciate what you have (lots of stories about folks who wished they had a particular piece of gear back). From the above posters you have hundreds of years of accumulated experience. Google is your friend in the age of the internet. But shopping via internet when you don't know exactly what you want or who you're buying from is full of pitfalls.

Firejedi · « **Reply #26 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 05:37 pm »

Im communicating with a local guy who has a Rega Brio-R for 600. I've seen reviews that fall on both sides of the good/bad spectrum with this amp. Anyone have any thoughts?

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #27 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 05:42 pm »

Your Intergra has preamps out so you can use it as a preamp and add a separate power amp. There is a Bel Canto S300 amp for sale on audiogon. Also consider used Adcom amps. If you are wanting tube sound the AVA Ultra Valve amps sounds great.

If you want an all in one, DAC, Preamp and amp, consider Peachtree. The Nova 220se has plenty of power to drive just about any speaker. It has a good DAC and a very nice sound. It will cost about $1500 but you will be getting a lot of gear for the money.

http://www.peachtreeaudio.com/all-products/amplifiers-dac.html

If you like a warmer sound and want to keep under $1K, consider the Marantz PM8005. I like the house Marantz sound.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marpm8005/marantz-pm8005-stereo-integrated-amplifier/1.html#!specifications

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #28 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 05:47 pm »

Quote from: Firejedi on 23 Mar 2016, 05:37 pm

Im communicating with a local guy who has a Rega Brio-R for 600. I've seen reviews that fall on both sides of the good/bad spectrum with this amp. Anyone have any thoughts?

I have listen an Rega small integrated amp around 2003 driving a hard DYNaudio pocket monitor, it was the sweetest sound I ear in a SS amp, on the level from the Jeff Rowland M1.

Zero · « **Reply #29 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 06:04 pm »

I apologize for the delay. Alright, so I'll attack your situation from two different angles. First, let's look at your options for new gear...

Before I list out the gear, it's important to note that since most distributors/manufacturers/retailers offer some kind of money-back guarantee, this is a fairly low-risk way to go. Besides, sometimes its nice to own new stuff. So with that said, here are my suggestions:

The first thing that I'd suggest is to replace your receiver with the Vista Audio Spark. This $350 integrated is absolutely stellar for the money. Don't let it's size and 20wpc rating fool you. Besides the fact that most people only use 5 clean watts on average - the power supply in the Spark is quite beastly and can drive many speakers well. In my subjective opinion, the Spark is one of the best sounding all-around integrated amps that I've come across for the cashola. The fact that it isn't made in China is a cherry on top.

Alright, so now let's talk about speakers... Given what you're looking for, I'd recommend the Dali Zensor 3's. At $600, we've pretty much tapped out your budget. However, if I were to be honest with you, you're asking for quite a bit from a $1000 system. So in light of that, I think the Zensor 3's give you most of what you're looking for. They throw out a huge soundstage, they sound full, they sound good off-axis, they sound good on-axis, they can play loud if needs be, they are efficient enough to be safely driven by the Spark (within reason), and are fairly easy to listen to for long periods of time.

Now if that's too rich for your blood, then a much less expensive yet still amazingly awesome option would be the Polk Audio T50's. At $250 a pair, these speakers are ridiculously good - especially when paired with the Spark. While the Polk's aren't as agile or as holographic sounding as the Dali's, they are fuller, warmer, and will leave you with little to complain about. The only downside is that you sacrifice bragging rights.

Now if you go this route, this would leave you with quite a bit of money left over for a good source. If you want to stream and rock CD's, then the Onkyo 7050 at $350 would be a very ideal solution. While I tend to prefer Marantz CD players at this price, the Onkyo is a smoother sounding unit and the fact that it has built-in streaming is, in your case, a mega-bonus.

Just some things to chew on.

Zero · « **Reply #30 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 06:11 pm »

Now let's talk about going used... Don't worry, this is going to be much shorter.

The benefit of going used is fairly obvious; this is usually where you get the biggest bang for your buck. I readily admit that the bulk of my experience was built on trying out a tremendous amount of used gear. Of course, this was back when sites like Audiogon were actually relevant.

Still, the major caveat to going used is that you need to have an idea as to what it is you're looking for. If you rummage through the used market with an empty pallet, all you're really doing is throwing darts in the dark. There's such a wide variety of used gear out there that it's very difficult for people to tell you what to look for. I mean, sure, there are some gear that hold a relatively constant presence in the used market, but most of the time, it all boils down to the specific deal.

charmerci · « **Reply #31 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 06:24 pm »

This thread is a bit confusing to me. The OP has some nice speakers (no mention of the sound) which look nice but " don't exactly look right in my living room which affects the WAF."

and is now getting some recommendations for less expensive speakers.

Also, the OP said that the Integra was partially fried in a lightning strike. I think the speakers would first be listened to with his extra Denon receiver if he's not too pleased with the sound...or is he?

Zero · « **Reply #32 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 06:30 pm »

Charmerci,

Earlier in the thread, the OP was encouraged to replace his receiver with a nice integrated amp as a starting point. It's still a very solid recommendation. However, it also appears as though the OP is looking to jump into a completely different situation, hence the 'system recommendations'.

charmerci · « **Reply #33 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 06:35 pm »

Zero, it's more about the OP than you.

brother love · « **Reply #34 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 06:38 pm »

OP,

In your initial post, you are thinking Salk Songtowers or Selahs with a cheap & cheerful amp. In your most recent post, you are looking at a $600 used Rega Brio-R integrated amp. And asking for any & all recommendations on top of that!

It seems like you are all over the map & may have the proverbial “cart before the horse”. I predict “Analysis Paralysis” is going to set in well before your head explodes ...

Synergy/ complimentary component matching plays a huge part in a good audiophile system (example: some amps can only handle 8 ohm speakers & fall short with a complex impedance load speaker). So I would recommend a stepped approach …

Choice #1: Start with your speakers. Use something like 40% or so of your total 2 channel system budget, then pick the speakers that match up with your listening tastes, room size, bass considerations (with or without sub), appearance/ WAF, etc.. If you decide to keep your existing Sonus Faber Concertinos in your main rig, then match an amp for those specific speakers.

Choice #2: Integrated amp or amp/preamp separates. considerations: Solid state or tube; higher wattage needed due to: low speaker sensitivity and/ or large room, increased dynamics preferred; phono stage needed or not; integrated or separates (preamp/ amp).

Choice #3: DAC selection. I have a Grant Fidelity TubeDAC11 that is a DAC/ Preamp with a tube (open box $299 right now). Schiit Audio Bifrost is another good choice to consider. If you have blown the budget on your 1st 2 choices, then cheaper DACS like Audioquest Dragonfly or Schiit Audio Modi2 could suffice.

Firejedi · « **Reply #35 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 07:37 pm »

Let me see if I can clarify. It's not that I'm all over the map (although that may be a little true). I think it's more of an evolution of thinking. Before joining this wonderful site, I was looking at new speakers. I enjoy my Concertinos, but was looking for better sound. After spending many hours on this site and in all the resulting rabbit holes, I decided that I may be better served by investing in new power to see if the improvements were satisfying (and because of the aforementioned concerns of the current receiver). My overall available budget is not necessarily limited to $1000, but I can also appreciate getting the best bang for your buck. I'm not a "hifi snob" who might feel that you're not doing it right if you don't spend $20000 on your system. I'm a stay at home dad who loves good sound but always has plenty of other things that I could ( and sometimes have to) spend money on.

So basically I'm trying to learn about lower cost components that can get the job done. If I get an amp and still desire a different sound, then i will search for different speakers. At least Ill know that I have good power at that point.

I hope this helps. I also hope I didn't offend anyone with my hifi snob comment.

Again, I appreciate everyone's input.

JLM · « **Reply #36 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 08:40 pm »

You've got really nice speakers (and a sub), so speaker wise you're very well set. But being rather inefficient you're problem is finding a good amount of watts at a good price (the ratings I found says the manufacturer recommends 25 - 120 watts). I'm a believer in having plenty of power to provide a commanding grip on the speakers (for better detail and imaging). But keep in mind that manufacturer power ratings vary widely. Note that big/heavy power supplies and tube power amps tend to out perform small solid state amps of the same ratings.

You're room is what I'd call American average, but don't know how loud you like to listen (have you downloaded a spl application yet?). Most listen most of the time at moderate levels, but music is all about peaks which can really push the power needs. Classical music averages 75 dB but can peak at 105 dB, live jazz averages 85 dB but can also peak at 105 dB, while rock concerts average 100 dB and peaks at 110 dB. In your room I'd guess you'd need about 115 watts per channel (wpc) to reach 105 dB and 360 wpc to reach 110 dB (that's not going to happen with your speakers). Note also that too much clean power is safer for your speakers than too little distorted power (which is the easiest way to destroy speakers). Another good reason to go with plenty of power.

No problem with offending me.

Recommend attending audio shows (Axpona will be in Chicago April 15 - 17) to get a feel and hear of what's out there. (I use shows mostly to issue veto more than make any definitive choices.) Also recommend finding a local audio club to join in their meetings to hear and share. Local shops can be a real crap shoot, as can online reviews (those take a ton of time to learn to read between the lines).

brother love · « **Reply #37 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 08:41 pm »

OK. Your last post is a little more clear.

What exactly is it that you don't like sound-wise with your current rig: Sonus Faber Concertinos matched with a cheap (your words) JBL sub & the Integra 30.1 receiver?

How do you currently have the sub connected with respect to the mains. Are you running the Concertinos full range or do you have a crossover set to blend the sub & mains? The cheap sub could be part of your problem. How do the mains sound without the sub? (That could be your first clue).

What are you expecting to hear in upgrading to a new/ improved amplifier only while keeping existing system intact?

I get the understanding that you want to bullet-proof your amplifier purchase to also be compatible with a possible future speaker upgrade like the Salk Songtowers or Selahs (no model given). That may or may not require a larger front end budget for a new amp to cover all the bases.

As previously mentioned by others, a cheap & cheerful solution would be the Crown XLS-1500 (used) or the new version XLS-1502 ($399): http://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xls-1502. They are pro amps that provide lots of power (300 watts @ 8 ohms), various speaker impedance load ranges & is dirt cheap for the money. Check out this thread if interested to see a very loyal following here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130191.0. Many pair it with a tube DAC or tube buffer like an iFi Micro iTube: http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-itube/

If you have more than one source, then a preamp is required w/ the Crown amp. The Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 DAC/ Preamp that I mentioned earlier is a cheap & cheerful solution. If you need a phono stage, then a different direction is likely needed.

Early B. · « **Reply #38 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 09:23 pm »

OP --

Buy this and enjoy your music for a while: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141816.msg1512730#new
You won't find a better C&C deal.

PS -- keep your speakers.

Firejedi · « **Reply #39 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 09:37 pm »

My sub is attached using the subwoofer out on the receiver. Pardon my lack of jargon knowledge. The Concertinos sound pretty good by themselves with the exception of that missing low end which could possibly be from the lack of power (based on what I've read).

I'm not sure how to express what I expect to hear. I think I've stated in previous posts what I like and I think that my current speakers may be able to deliver that with the proper help. So my plan really is to start with the amp. I would like to be able to stream music, so a DAC is probably in my future also. I guess I figured it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money on new speakers without being able to properly power them.

I've reached out to Klaus at Odyssey and I will look into the Crown. I am guessing that the crown will require a preamp, so that will be another thing. But at $399 the thought of a preamp (maybe in combo with a DAC) is very doable.

I can't say that Im worried about bulletproofing my amp. I have been using very basic stuff for many years, so if I were to upgrade speakers in the future, I wouldn't worry about rushing to replace the amp.

As far as Selah is concerned. Rick is working on new set of monitors that I am going to hear in a couple weeks. One factor that is in play as far as new speakers is that my wife is not a huge fan of how the Concertinos look in our LR. Not a concern of mine, but most people understand what Im talking about.

Ill look into the Jungian