room size and watts needed

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henrylr

room size and watts needed
« on: 22 Mar 2016, 03:44 am »
Hi all,

My main listening room is 26'LX16'Wx9'H. It has hardwood floors, mostly covered by wool area rugs, soft seating, hard walls, windows with soft shades and a canvas ceiling. Pretty much a mix of soft and hard features.

The speakers are B&W N803 (90dB sensitivity) about 45" out from the 16' wide front wall and about 35" away from the sides walls.

I now have a 200 watt A/B amp which goes to 26 watts in pure class A. It runs very hot so I think most of what i listen to, jazz, is below 25 watts. I don't know what wattage is drawn when I listen to a full symphonic piece.

I'm thinking of getting a low powered amp like an SET or something with only 25 watts per channel.

Is there a way to determine the minimum wattage I need?

poseidonsvoice

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Re: room size and watts needed
« Reply #1 on: 22 Mar 2016, 10:32 am »
1. How far is your listening position (in feet or meters preferably) relative to front plane of your speakers?

2. How loud do you listen on average? Use an SPL meter, listen to a variety of recordings and make sure the SPL meter is on "C" weighting to get a general idea. But be very honest about this.

3. Do you have an impedance curve of your speakers? Has a 3rd party measured them on the Internet/magazine with regards to the efficiency rating you quote and the impedance curve?

4. Do you have any room treatments? Any subwoofer(s)?

Secondarily:

5. What is your primary source, digital or vinyl?

6. What is the overall gain of your amplifier? Do you use a passive or active preamp?

Best,

Anand.


maty

Re: room size and watts needed
« Reply #2 on: 22 Mar 2016, 11:40 am »

JLM

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Re: room size and watts needed
« Reply #3 on: 22 Mar 2016, 01:25 pm »
You need to use a sound pressure level (spl) meter or application to determine how loud you listen (use "slow" and "C" settings).  Spl's are measured in dB's (1 dB is the smallest incremental difference in sound levels that the average person can discern).  Most audiophiles do serious listening at about 80 dB, background noise is typically 40 dB, classical/jazz peaks around 105 dB, rock concerts typically run 110 dB, and the threshold of pain is 130 dB (all generally accepted numbers).  Long term exposure to a constant 85 dB will result in permanent hearing loss and/or pain.  Classical music averages 30 dB peaks, jazz 20 dB, and rock 10 dB.  Dynamic range is the difference between peak and background noise. 

Next you need to soul search to decide how loud you want to listen (maximum, ever) and if you'll be changing to less efficient speakers before you change amps again.  As an audiophile I assume you want realistic playback of tone, detail, imaging, dynamics, etc. so do you also want realistic spl's?

Note that sound pressure level is logarithmic in scale compared to watts.  So the sensitivity you indicated (90 dB/w/m) is based on 1 watt of input.  Examples of dB vs. watts of gain:

1 watt    = 0 dB of gain
2 watts    = 3 dB of gain (a "half again" perceived loudness)
4 watts    = 6 dB of gain
10 watts   = 10 dB of gain (perceived as twice as loud, thus the logarithmic scale)
40 watts   = 16 dB of gain
100 watts  = 20 dB of gain
200 watts  = 23 dB of gain
1000 watts = 30 dB of gain

So for your amp provides 14 dB of gain in class A operation which would be roughly 98 dB (depending on where you sit in the room) and 23 dB of gain in total which would be roughly 107 dB according to maty's calculator (thanks for the link!).  So yes, you probably do most of your listening in class A operation.  BTW class A runs full on all the time, so the heat generated won't change with the wattage being provided.


That's all theory, but in the real world the way manufacturer's quote their audio product specifications, especially speaker efficiency and wattage, varies widely.  And as the above numbers suggest, that can easily result in needing 4 times the wattage.  Another real world consideration involves the design of the amp (beefy power supplys and tube versus solid state work best).  And of course you want to avoid sending a distorted signal (due to pushing the amp too hard) to your speakers because that's the easiest way to blow drivers.  And my experience also indicates that for the best resolution (in terms of detail and imaging) the amp should have a commanding grip on the speakers (plenty of reserve power). 


If your speakers were 83 dB/w/m efficient (not terribly uncommon) it would take about 2300 watts per channel to reach rock concert levels in your room!  OTOH if your speakers were 95 dB/w/m efficient (again not terribly uncommon) it would still take 145 watts per channel to reach those same levels.  So the best advice is to select speaker first, then look for a properly sized amp.  If your speakers can handle say 100 watts or so, I'd say you already have an ideally sized amp.

FullRangeMan

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Re: room size and watts needed
« Reply #4 on: 22 Mar 2016, 01:58 pm »
A always useful text from Niteshade Audio:
HOW MUCH POWER YOU NEED?
Some key factors in determining how much power is necessary:
   1.  Power and Speaker Sensitivity
   2.  Room size
   3.  Listening habits
   4.  Kind of music listened to

Here are some efficiency ratings and my Nwattage suggestions:
     85-87db:   100 watts  per  channel
     88-90db:   50   watts
     90-93db:   20   watts
     93-95db:   10   watts
     95-98db:    3    watts   
   100db up: 1-3  watts

The recommendations are considerably different for each group even though there's
only a 15db difference between the highest and lowest ratings.

ROOM SIZE:
Big rooms can soak up power. It depends how they're furnished too. Please take into
consideration how far from the speakers you listen. If you want background music, then
there's nothing to worry about. My main auditioning room is about 15x30 feet and 50w
/channel works nicely even with 88db speakers.

LISTENING HABITS:
Loud music clearly demands more power. A moderate-impact listening session with 88db
speakers can require up to 30w/channel. A high impact session requires about 80w or more.
Get this- normal listening levels need only 5 to 10w. It's a STEP upward curve in the low
efficiency realm.

KIND OF MUSIC LISTENED TO:
Every kind of music sounds ideal at a certain volume level. Some genres sound great at
high levels some sound great at low levels, but not high ones. Please keep in mind the
listening level you prefer for your most demanding music. Low volumes are easy to produce,
so don't think about that.  Loud, heavy bass requires substantially more power than fiddle
playing. Wide, busy sound stages should have more power at their disposal than a solo vocalist.

CLOSING REMARKS:
I will be happy to assist you in choosing an amplifier that's perfect for your setup. Keep in
mind that wattage does not denote quality. Some believe that high wattage amplifiers do
not sound as good as low power ones. That is not true. Wattage is determined by where the
volume is set. A 100 watt amplifier can easily do 1 watt maximum with no ill effects.
The reverse is not true.

mcgsxr

Re: room size and watts needed
« Reply #5 on: 22 Mar 2016, 04:35 pm »
In terms of real world, you might try a free ios app as an SPL meter.  I use one and am happy with the ballpark measures it provides me.

In my 24x25x7.5 foot room I have used 2 different setups with great success.  Musical preferences are VERY varied - just about everything other than country or rap.  I sit about 8 feet from the speakers which are about 3.5 feet off the front wall.

1.  A set of DIY open baffle speakers using 97db efficient single drivers.  Used a 3-5wpc single ended pentode amp.  Was very happy for 10 years.

2.  Currently using 85db efficient Magnepans.  Using a 525wpc Class D pro amp.  Equally happy!

I never listen beyond 90db peaks, and the vast majority of my listening is 80-85db peaks.  Sometimes a little lower if my cats are sleeping in the listening room.

S Clark

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Re: room size and watts needed
« Reply #6 on: 22 Mar 2016, 05:07 pm »
There are lots of ifs and provisos, but I'd say 20-30 watts of tube amp would do very nicely.   I just built a 15 wpc 6bq5 set of monoblocks that drive 91 db speakers (X-Statiks) in a slightly smaller room more than adequately. 
On the other hand, it takes every watt of my 200 wpc Moscode to drive my 90dB LS9 line arrays in my larger room.  In that case, power is about control rather than volume. 

S Clark

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Re: room size and watts needed
« Reply #7 on: 23 Mar 2016, 12:23 am »
There is a Virtue 901 in the for sale section that would fill the bill. 

Bob2

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Re: room size and watts needed
« Reply #8 on: 23 Mar 2016, 01:06 am »
My room is 12X18X8. My speakers claim 92.5 dB efficient.
At 9', 88 dB it is plenty loud as measured per JLM"s recommend "C weight" "slow". Measured with a Check Mate SPL meter IEC 651 Type 2.
Using tube amp with claimed 50W per. Cranked to about 50%.
Tune: Bad Case of Love.. B.B. King just now!
My room is acoustically treated if all this helps....

JLM

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Re: room size and watts needed
« Reply #9 on: 26 Mar 2016, 10:46 am »
I still like the analog Radio Shack spl meter.  It's a known product (search the net for correction values).  Who knows about any of those smartphone applications?  In fact a week ago while auditioning a speaker a friend whips out his app and reads 82 dB (we both thought it was much louder than that). 

Got my meter back when I was trying to drink the SET cool-aid and everyone there fixates on speaker efficiency and available spl's due to the limited wattage of the SET's.  Between the meter and test tones, found out just what I was listening to (seems that many audiophiles don't).