Digital Room Correction (long)

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geofstro

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« on: 29 Oct 2004, 11:47 am »
Convolve with me :D

I've been interested in the idea of digital room correction for some time. After following a thread about a year ago on the AVS forum, then a subsequent more recent thread, I decided to give it a try. The first of these threads was started by Jones Rush and they deal with using a PC and some low cost additional hardware. This allows you to get your feet wet with digital room correction without a vast outlay.

The only disadvantages to doing this on a PC are as follows:

1. You will have to playback your music via the PC
2. Playback will be limited to standard redbook CD or files at 44.1khz
3. It follows from the above that only digital sources will benefit.

As far as the first restriction is concerned I had the idea that I could record the output from the software player to my hard drive and subsequently burn the resulting file to a disc. That disc could then be played on a conventional Transport/CD player that plays CDR's. It will only make sense to play it back in the same room where you've applied DRC, of course. Otherwise the results will be unpredictable. I haven't tried this yet; but will give it a go this weekend.

Nothing can be done about the second restriction. There's nothing to stop you playing back a file at a sample rate greater than 44.1khz; but you will get some weird results. In my case, in some ways, the sound seemed processed and certain aspects could be exaggerated. e.g exaggerated, boomy bass, and part of the reason to apply DRC in the first place is to get rid of that sort of problem. There's nothing to stop you from resampling the file after DRC is applied, though. Using Foobar 2K you must make sure the resampler is applied after the convolver.

The guy who started the first thread on AVS forum has written very clear and precise instructions on how to go about this and there's no point in my reproducing that here. I have provided a synopsis of what's involved, though, since I'd like to try and encourage as many people to try this as possible. I've found the results very beneficial.

Here is a link to download the full instructions in pdf format:

http://www.mooneyass.com/DRC/

Here's the synopsis of what's involved:

Download Cooledit Pro plus the Auroroa plug-ins
Download the DRC program

The links are provided in the instructions from Jones Rush.

Use a microphone preamp and a microphone. I ordered the exact models in the instructions. They cost me Euros122. You will also need an spl meter and a multimeter.

I connected the mic to the mic preamp using xlr cable and the preamp to the sound card on my PC using the tape out via RCA to minijack.

Set the mic up at your listening position.

My sound card is the (much maligned by Audiophiles) Audigy 2. If you have a better sound card, you'll probably get better results.

In the instructions he boosts the mic preamps gain to just below clipping, then sets the mic input gain on the PC (Sound card, recording, Mic-in volume) to minimum. This is how he obtains minimal s/n ration when recording. With my sound card I had to do the opposite, otherwise I overloaded the mic input on the sound card. I had to set the mic input volume on the PC to max and just use a small amount of gain on the preamp. You'll need to make a few test recordings to determine this. You'll want to make sure the sound cards' mic OUTPUT volume is muted, otherwise you'll get feedback.

When you record from within Cooledit pro using the mic, you want to make sure it peaks at no greater than -3db.

The mic preamp will only be outputting to one channel, which could be either the left or right. You need to determine which it is in order to get the setting right in CoolEdit pro.

When playing the test sweeps you want to try to get your spl meter hovering around 85db, whilst at the same time making sure you don't go over the max volume your speaker can handle, as described in the instructions.

With the frequency sweep hovering around 85db (assuming you can get away with that without hurting the speakers) and the recording peaking at -3db with minimal s/n ratio, you're ready to start.

BTW, I had to stuff cotton wool in my ears while playing these frequency sweeps.

Next you create a full frequency sweep in CoolEdit and use your PC Sound Output balance control to move the sound entirely to one channel. Either the left or right channel, it doesn't matter which one you  start with. Play back the sound and record it with CoolEdit as instructed.

These files are both treated with the Aurora plug-in as per the instructions.

Repeat for the other channel.

Now you save the resulting files of the frequency sweeps for each channel to your hard drive and run each one through the DRC software.
(The DRC software has different options. NOTE: The instructions use the 'normal' setting and I followed those. At the end of the exercise I repeated from this step to produce strong files. This gives me the option of using either normal or strong correction in my software player (see below).)

This results in two room correction files for each speaker. Only one of each of these files is used for each channel.

Each of these new files is then opened within CoolEdit Pro and combined into a single stereo .wav file as per the instructions.

The software player you'll need to use is Foobar2000. You'll need the special installer which includes the 'Convolver' DSP plug-in:

http://www.foobar2000.org/foobar_special.php

When you've got foobar2k installed, go to the Preferences->DSP manager and make sure Convolver is in the active set of plug-ins. Then click on Convolver on the left hand side. Within the Convolver set-up area there is a button which allows you to select a file. Select the stereo .wav file that you produced as your final result within CoolEdit Pro. Set the effect slider to the max.

There is also a clipping protection slider and Jones Rush included instructions for determining what the value should be. Set too far below zero and you will compress dynamics, set too high and you will get clipping. I found the best setting just by experimentation. -3.5 works well for me on most recordings.

Like I said, I found the benefits to be really worthwhile. At first, after all the work, I was expecting a huge dramatic difference, such as amazing soundstaging. It didn't seem to sound so different at the beginning. As I listened further though, it gradually dawned on me that the sound had improved in a number of important ways.

I can listen into recordings like never before and hear things going on in familiar recordings that had eluded me before. If this sounds like an ultra detailed sound, well, it is; but certainly not in the sense of losing the meaning of the music. On the contrary, the correct perspectives are brought out along with the detail. Subtle details can now be heard; but they are not brought forward in favor of the main instruments. The relative loudness and softness of the various instruments now being correct or closer to correct than before Of course, I can't know this for sure. All I can say is, it sounds right. This makes it easier to follow all that's going on in the music and at the same time respond naturally to the music. It's definitely not a case of detail swamping musical meaning. Rather subtle details are brought out because they are not being swamped by what was before a relatively muddy mid-bass.

In fact you may feel there is less bass at the beginning (depending on your room and what correction was necessary). This is a common reaction, since many rooms contribute to a bloating of the mid-bass. The bass will not be lacking, however. You should find it tighter and the timing may be better conveyed.

This was using the 'normal file. When I swapped this for the 'strong' room correction file. all of the above applied, perhaps to an even greater extent. Additionally, there is a kind of 'transparency' that I've never heard before. This is most apparent on vocals. A singer's voice is uncannily 'there' in my room, even when heavy eq has been used on the disc. It's as if the room correction has somehow separated the actual vocal from the eq added to it. What this means is that on certain studio recordings I can hear a phenomenon which I can't quite identify. It could be the eq or the recording booth or some combination of the two. Whichever it is, it does sound processed. It's slightly phasing and metallic sounding. That's the best way I can describe it Of course, I'm not ruling out that it could be that this method of digital room correction isn't perfect or I didn't do it perfectly and what I'm hearing is a synthetic effect of the room correction itself. If that's the case though, I can't hear it effecting the voice itself or any of the other instruments. Weird. Maybe someone else might have heard this and be able to explain.

In any case, overall, I find the results very positive.

It would be great if more people can try this approach and post your results here.

Have fun!

geoff

dave_c

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #1 on: 29 Oct 2004, 03:17 pm »
Thanks for the post Geoff!  I've been looking for a solution like this for a while.  Now that my system is almost entirely PC based, this looks like the next logical step in eeking the most out of it.  Although there are limitations to having a PC based system, its things like this that make it seem worthwhile.

csero

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #2 on: 29 Oct 2004, 03:24 pm »
Could you tell me, how can I get a CoolEdit eval version.

Since Adobe purchasedand rebadged it, no trial available and the whole package is a bit expensive to start with.

I'm also eagerly waiting for a crossfeed in the convolver plugin. It will open a whole new world.

Thanks

Csero

geofstro

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #3 on: 29 Oct 2004, 03:32 pm »
I just followed the link in Jones Rush's instructions. Cool Edit Pro has a 21 day eval period before you need to register.

http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/Cool_Edit_Pro-Download-2076.html

Adobe has renamed it 'Audition' but you can still download the original trial from the above link.

I'll be interested to read how you guys get along.

geoff

geofstro

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #4 on: 1 Nov 2004, 04:01 pm »
The link I provided for the instructions doesn't always work, as Dave pointed out to me.

Here's a better one:

http://drc.wildgooses.com/images/d/de/DRC_Guide_v1.0.pdf

There is also more good information at the same site:

http://drc.wildgooses.com/index.php/Main_Page

Also, there's a wealth of info/discussion on the AVSForums/HTPC:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=26

Just do a search for DRC.

I did some more reading on the subject and based on that, I think the VERY slight phasiness I hear in a restricted frequency area plus a bit of post-echo in that area could be that I didn't have my mike exactly positioned right. Still, this is on the Strong correction file only, not the normal one; but the benefits still far outweigh these minor deficiencies.

Still, it shows just how important that mike placement is.

Hope it helps.

geoff

Hantra

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #5 on: 30 Jan 2005, 06:04 pm »
Geoff:

I am noticing that my room is extremely flat.  I noticed that last time I had some help measuring it, but playing this sweep showed that although it didn't sound that flat, the recorded waveform was very flat indeed.  

I will proceed and advise. .  

Thanks,

B

CSMR

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #6 on: 30 Jan 2005, 08:35 pm »
Sounds interesting. I have all the equipment for this, so I'll give it a shot when I have some time. Probably best to look up the frequency response of the microphone you use and add it to the equaliser.

geofstro

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #7 on: 31 Jan 2005, 10:58 am »
CSMR,

I agree that would probably be a good idea. The DRC program does come with an ini file that allows you do add paramters for microphone characteristics, amongst other things.

Hantra,

You're very lucky to have such a flat room. I expect you'll still benefit from DRC though, since your speakers are not llikely to be perfectly flat. I believe since DRC is adjusting for any frequency anomolies that reach the mike it should help to flattened out any anomolies there as well.

At the weekend I discovered a very useful feature of Foobar 2000 (the player that includes 'convolver' which allows you to apply the room correction when you play a CD or audio file). Foobar also has a feature called discwriter that allows you to convert an audio file from one type to another and write the result to disc.

When you use this feature you can elect to have it apply any DSP effects as part of the conversion and since 'convolver' is a DSP effect you can use it to create a new file with your room correction applied. Just convert to a fixed point 16bit Wav. Even if your audio file is already in wav format, you can still apply the conversion in order to have the file, room corrected. Make sure any other DSP effects you don't wish to be applied are deselected using DSP manager.

You can then burn a new CD using this file and play it back on any CDP/Transport, rather than be limited to only having room correction applied when you play back on a PC.

I've found this very useful for a system that doesn't have a PC permanently in the room. I ran the frequency sweeps and produced an impulse file per the instructions, then I used that implulse file on a PC in another room to produce room corrected disks.

It only takes a minute or less to produce a corrected version of an entire album using this method.

Hope it helps!

geoff

Hantra

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #8 on: 31 Jan 2005, 01:45 pm »
Geoff:

I must say that at first I thought that the highs were gone, and everything was just muffled.  But as I listened more last night, I think I'm getting MORE detail with the convolving.  I suppose my highs were just exaggerated before.  I know there is something missing b/c I am missing some noise from certain recordings, which is not necessarily a bad thing.  

I still need to do more listening to determine whether I like this, but right now with ASIO, I noticed frequent dropouts, which are audible clicks in the song.  Even with ASIO buffering as high as I can get it with the Control Panel, I still get the clicks.  

My processor usage is only around 30% peak.  Would you think I need more RAM or something?  Even though my RAM usage is not that high, I am curious if this is causing the dropouts.  

What CPU are you using with yours?  WaveOut works fine, but ASIO is so much better sounding.  

BTW, I wonder if this can be done at 24 bit instead of 32.  Right now, I have found 24 padded to 32 to sound best in Foobar.  So if the filter is done at 24, perhaps it would be better.

Thanks for the information!

B

geofstro

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #9 on: 31 Jan 2005, 05:40 pm »
Hantra,

Your experience parallels mine in a sense, only in my case I seemed to be getting less bass. What I believe DRC did for me, is to strip some of the fat off an overly ripe midbass which was masking other detail. I got a significant increase in detail, like you, though, I wasn't sure if I liked it at first, because I'd become used to that bloated bass.

Although the new bass seemed emaciated in comparison, I soon got used to it once I realised it was a more tuneful and complex bass that I was now hearing, together with the greater detail.

If done correctly DRC will correct for any exagerrated areas wherever they occurred before in the frequency spectrum and it does take some getting used to. Please persevere though, and try it out with a variety of different types of music.

Sorry, I don't really know what could be causing the clicking with ASIO. I agree it sounds much better than wave out. I'm using a P4 3 ghz with a gig of fast RAM. There are so many different factors that could be coming into play.

What sound card are you using? Does it support ASIO natively or do you need to use ASIO4all? Try visiting the Hydrogen forums where you should find plenty of tips on Foobar.

Are you playing a CD or a file? Have you tried both?

You could also try burning a corrected file to CDR as I described above and playing it on a regular CDP, if you have a burner and other CDP/Transport available.

This method of DRC is, unfortunately, limited to 16 bit 44.1khz, CD standard at the moment, I believe. Other methods may allow you to go to 24 bit 96khz. I think you can do this on Linux for example; but have no experience of it.

Does your sounds card do bit perfect playback at 16 bit 44.1 or does it resample to 48khz?

If you do any resampling in Foobar, be sure to place the resampler after convolver; but actually I don't recommend resampling at all, except to preempt a sound card that insists on resampling to 48khz.

Hope it helps!

geoff

Hantra

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #10 on: 31 Jan 2005, 06:08 pm »
Geoff:

Thanks!  That helps considerably.  

I am using a Lynx L22 for sound, and it is native ASIO.  I am using the Otachan ASIO dll for Foobar.  I'm seriously thinking about moving over to Linux and seeing if the clicking goes away.  I want to try to make a couple more filters at different levels to see if my ribbons are getting too excited up high at those higer dB's.  Once I do that, I can go to Linux b/c I am not sure CoolEdit will work at all in Linux. . .

I don't upsample because I can't figure our a good way to do it.  The only way I can think of is to upsample in Foo with that Resampler, and I don't think I like the sound of it very much.  If I could figure out how to make the card do real time upsampoling, I would, but I just can't seem to find a way other than using software.

Thanks for the help!  I appreciate it!

B

Jon L

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #11 on: 31 Jan 2005, 09:04 pm »
Hantra, what mic pre and mic are your using?  I need to buy some for my Lynx card as well to try the DRC.  I assume Flac files in Foobar works with DRC?

As for clicking, I'm finding that even with ASIO buffer set to max, it's not enough buffer size to prevent clicking completely when heavy processing is being done.  Kernel Streaming's buffer is considerably longer than even ASIO at max, and I get no skipping with KS.

Hantra

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #12 on: 31 Jan 2005, 11:18 pm »
Quote from: Jon L
Hantra, what mic pre and mic are your using?  I need to buy some for my Lynx card as well to try the DRC.  I assume Flac files in Foobar works with DRC?

As for clicking, I'm finding that even with ASIO buffer set to max, it's not enough buffer size to prevent clicking completely when heavy processing is being done.  Kernel Streaming's buffer is considerably longer than even ASIO at max, and I get no skipping with KS.


I am using a mic I borrowed.  I think it's a Panasonic, and an Art MicroMAX pre.  I JUST figured out that the OUT 2 on my L22 is missing a leg of the balanced signal, and I'm pissed.  It just started around the time this bass thing started, and I was wondering WTF was up with the DRC when I was making my wavs for different channels.  I can't believe it. .  

Sounds damned good single-ended, but still it makes me mad.  

B :evil:

geofstro

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #13 on: 1 Feb 2005, 08:34 am »
Jon L,

I was forgetting about Kernel Streaming. It could prove a good alternative for someone who's having trouble with ASIO. Glad you pointed it out.

Hantra,

The software will be completely different on Linux. Something called BruteFir if I remember correctly. There's a lot of talk about it on the AVS forums. Just do a search for DRC. Those guys are doing multi-channel DRC.

I do find clipping to be an issue with PC playback generally. My understanding is that standalone players have built in safeguards against clipping; but when you use a PC you don't have that. The instructions for DRC include determining the amount you'll need to reduce the output to avoid clipping. The convolver panel has a slider for you to set this value (e.g. -2.5db or whatever). I'm beginning to suspect, though, that this limiter within the convolver panel may have a detrimental effect and could be responsible for the slight phasiness I sometimes hear. I prefer to set it at +0db within convolver and do any limiting within my soundcards master volume control. I have an E-MU 1212M, so I use their Patchmix application for this.

As far as resmampling is concerned I like the results I'm getting with DVD2One Audio remaster. However, they claim they only resample in order to have more bits available for their re-mastering software to work its magic. You could run this on a room corrected file. The software creates a DVD structure on your hard drive, which you can then burn to a DVD.

geoff

Hantra

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #14 on: 1 Feb 2005, 11:48 am »
Quote
I'm beginning to suspect, though, that this limiter within the convolver panel may have a detrimental effect and could be responsible for the slight phasiness I sometimes hear. I prefer to set it at +0db within convolver and do any limiting within my soundcards master volume control.


I hear that phasiness as well even with my filter at 0.0dB.  Of course much of it could be due to my soundcard not working correctly.  I guess I'll try again when and if I get this thing fixed.

Thanks for all the help!


B

geofstro

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #15 on: 1 Feb 2005, 12:14 pm »
Hantra,

Just had another thought. If you only get the clicking with ASIO when using convolver it could be because convolver puts an extra strain on resources. If you temporarily remove convolver with DSP manager and you don't get the clicking when you play a file or CD that would prove it.

If you're not able to use convolver in Real Time, you can always use it with diskwriter to create a room corrected version of the music as I described. Then remove concolver again to listen to that file through Foobar or burn it to a fresh CDR and play it on a CDP.

If you still get clicking with convolver turned off, you could try playing the corrected file with another player that supports ASIO, such as J River Media center and see if that works.

I had two attempts at DRC. The first resulted in quite obvious phasiness the second worked better and I couldn't detect it at all until I played a file using convolver at -2.5db.

I want to make it clear, I consider myself a novice at this. All I did was follow instructions. The main reason I started this thread is so I could learn from others as we pool our knowledge.

geoff

Rob Babcock

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #16 on: 1 Feb 2005, 12:59 pm »
How long will it take the retards working for The Majors to catch up even with the wake of you guys out on the frontier?

Hantra

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #17 on: 1 Feb 2005, 03:21 pm »
Quote from: Rob Babcock
How long will it take the retards working for The Majors to catch up even with the wake of you guys out on the frontier?


The Majors?  You mean like Krell?  

Last I heard they were working on their FOUR THOUSAND DOLLAR XM RECEIVER.   :lol:

I have the Polk XM receiver, and it's the best I've heard, but even on the clearest channels with the highest bandwidth, it's still very close to 192kbps MP3, and on the majority of channels we're talking 128kbps or less.  So $4,000 seems fair for a high end MP3 player.  Right?   :lol:

Rob Babcock

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Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #18 on: 1 Feb 2005, 03:55 pm »
And the Johnny-come-lately's at NHT that just fucking figured out that guys have been doing this shit  for years!  Do they recall SOCS, or DIY sytems incorportating digital room correction and digital X-overs back when they were still planning their "mission statements?" :wink:

byteme

Digital Room Correction (long)
« Reply #19 on: 1 Feb 2005, 04:12 pm »
Quote from: Hantra

I have the Polk XM receiver, and it's the best I've heard, but even on the clearest channels with the highest bandwidth, it's still very close to 192kbps MP3, and on the majority of channels we're talking 128kbps or less.  So $4,000 seems fair for a high end MP3 player.  Right?   :lol:


Shoulda let me know about the Polk receiver bud!  Coulda saved you a couple bucks - my non-XM distributor carries those.  Go figure...