Cheap and Cheerful, active or passive?

restrav · « **on:** 5 Mar 2016, 10:20 pm »

Here's the idea: Do I get better stereo sound for stereo music by:
1 - PC => LHLabs Lightspeed 1G USB cable => Schiit Modi 2 Uber => Sony DA5300ES => audioquest speaker cables => Elac B5
2 - PC => LHLabs LightSpeed 1G USB cable => Yamaha NX-N500
The idea is that the sony DA5300ES is, well a home theater receiver so its not the greatest choice for stereo. but it is also High end so If I just forgo its digital inputs and just use it as an amplifier into Elac b5, it does have a beefy power supply and even the silicon (the output stage transistors) are supposedly better than a cheap AVR and hopefully also a cheap stereo amp. I bought the DA5300ES for $110 and B5's are 230, the DAC is $150 and I already have the speaker cable and USB cable. total almost $500.
On the other hand Yamaha is all in one, has great software like an app on your phone, a modern ESS DAC with DSD and purpose built for hifi music listening and it's 800 dollars. I have the sony already in house and the rest are coming from amazon. I want to do a comparison. I welcome all suggestions. what do you think?
the sony will also be fed directly from my PC, through SPDIF to see how the Schiit Modi 2 affects the sound. I got no acoustic treatment in the house and its just out of question. These are two completely different approaches to building a stereo, but both are feasible for me and a lot of other people and I just want to know which one sounds better, if the sound is any different at all.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Mar 2016, 11:19 pm »

I think it's a great comparison. The Sony was a $1700 receiver in its day, so I would expect a lot of competition for the powered/active Yamaha speakers. Let us know how it turns out.

JLM · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Mar 2016, 01:25 am »

I've heard the B6, a nice modern (constipated light weight bass, spritely voicing) passive monitor. I expect the B5 to have even less bass. (This from an owner of single driver speakers.)

OTOH the Yamaha NX-N500 scare me from their NS-10 vintage (which was popular in studios, but mostly because it emulated typical/horrible consumer speakers). It seems very well equipped, but possible of the fast moving technology I'm not a fan of speakers with built-in DAC. Plus having so many possible connections and built-in DAC smells of a consumer product, while most active monitors are intended for studio work and I'd expect better made. Note the poor reliability was one of the downfalls of the Paradigm Active 20's/40's from years ago. In execution they totally kicked butt of their passive counterparts.

Being a single driver speaker owner, I'm a fan of active speakers (as single drivers are by default). But I'd look at Audiostream.com for consumer oriented active monitors (something like Adam F5) and use your Modi 2 Uber (better yet a BiFrost and go to Blue Jean Cables for your wiring).

srb · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Mar 2016, 02:04 am »

Certainly an interesting comparison - how does a 120W/ch AVR and passive 2-way speakers compare to a 45W/ch (24W LF / 20W HF) active speaker, with optimized matching between amplifiers and drivers?

However, JLM may have some valid concerns and suspicions concerning the Yamaha NX-N500.

Since one option is to spend $800, consider getting the $500 ELAC Uni-Fi UB5 3-way speaker, due out in April. It would be hard to imagine the Yamaha being able to keep up with that combo.

BTW, whether the Sony is a better or worse choice than the other usual suspects (Denon, Marantz, Yamaha), getting any manufacturer's $1700 HDMI (albeit HDMI v1.3) receiver for $110 is a steal!

Steve

restrav · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Mar 2016, 02:56 am »

Quote from: JLM on 6 Mar 2016, 01:25 am

I've heard the B6, a nice modern (constipated light weight bass, spritely voicing) passive monitor. I expect the B5 to have even less bass. (This from an owner of single driver speakers.)

OTOH the Yamaha NX-N500 scare me from their NS-10 vintage (which was popular in studios, but mostly because it emulated typical/horrible consumer speakers). It seems very well equipped, but possible of the fast moving technology I'm not a fan of speakers with built-in DAC. Plus having so many possible connections and built-in DAC smells of a consumer product, while most active monitors are intended for studio work and I'd expect better made. Note the poor reliability was one of the downfalls of the Paradigm Active 20's/40's from years ago. In execution they totally kicked butt of their passive counterparts.

Being a single driver speaker owner, I'm a fan of active speakers (as single drivers are by default). But I'd look at Audiostream.com for consumer oriented active monitors (something like Adam F5) and use your Modi 2 Uber (better yet a BiFrost and go to Blue Jean Cables for your wiring).

your concerns about the Yamaha's are exactly why I have stayed away from active speakers in general (of couse there many high quality active but they are out of the price bracket im looking). But I had a correspondence with Glen from 6moons. he is impressed for the price also taking into account the convenience features. his review is coming out in couple of weeks. that's why I decided to give them a try.

restrav · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Mar 2016, 02:58 am »

Im not sure what you mean by single driver speakers are active by default. I cant even think of one that is.

srb · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Mar 2016, 03:05 am »

Quote from: Dadbeh on 6 Mar 2016, 02:58 am

Im not sure what you mean by single driver speakers are active by default. I cant even think of one that is.

Most are. The amplifier (whether internal or external) is wired directly to the driver with no passive crossover network in between.

Steve

restrav · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Mar 2016, 03:10 am »

Quote from: srb on 6 Mar 2016, 03:05 am

Most are. The amplifier (whether internal or external) is wired directly to the driver with no passive crossover network in between.

Steve

oh I see. ofcourse by active I mean the amplification is built in and non defeatable so you dont get a choice in the amplification. That is different than saying the driver is directly hooked up to the amp so its active .

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 12:52 am »

I suppose a single driver speaker could be called a subset of active speaker systems, but still a type of active speaker. That you can pick your amp is a big difference.

G Georgopoulos · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 01:57 am »

Quote from: JLM on 6 Mar 2016, 01:25 am

Being a single driver speaker owner,

JLM no offence intended but you're into digital and high end
full range drivers are a compromise
yet you go for it
yet you know alot of speakers and room's acoustics
i don't get it?,are you into high end or not?

cheers...

JLM · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 02:23 am »

Sorry to confuse. Yes, single driver speaker owners do get to pick their amp. And many pick tube amps (which is all but impossible to find built into a "true" active speaker. Note that there are a very few active speakers that have externally mounted amps (to allow for use of physically bigger amps and smaller or specially shaped speakers like the Munro Egg 150).

Active designs can be had for relatively cheap. For instance the JBL LSR305 is a reasonably well respected active 2-way with 5 inch woofer that sells for $300/pair and are rated down to 41 Hz. I'd say impossible to find decent passives with that performance, including the necessary amp.

Active designs allow for a very direct connection between amp and driver. And the crossover are low voltage designs that can be much more sophisticated. (For instance the crossover in the $400/pair concentric Equator D5 are each factory tweaked with built-in DSP to provide highly matched pairs before shipping.) This produces markedly improved dynamics, flatter frequency response (a revelation in itself), and almost greatly extended/increased bass response compared to comparable passive speakers.

The real challenge of finding active speakers for home use is the fact that most are designed for studio work so they have a dry/analytical presentation that can be fatiguing. Make no mistake, active studio monitors typically are very accurate, to get to the correct mix as quickly as possible. But audiophiles want to be entertained and their fancies to be tickled (variations of euphoria, which explains why so many different home speakers are in the market). So as always, listen for yourself.

JLM · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 02:31 am »

Quote from: G Georgopoulos on 7 Mar 2016, 01:57 am

JLM no offence intended but you're into digital and high end
full range drivers are a compromise
yet you go for it
yet you know alot of speakers and room's acoustics
i don't get it?,are you into high end or not?

cheers...

All speakers are a compromise. Hopefully we each pick the compromises that best suit each of us as individuals. There is no perfect speaker or ideal speaker type.

I'm into enjoying music. My system/room allows me to enjoy my musical library at home. What one calls high-end another might not. Check out my system and decide for yourself.

G Georgopoulos · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 02:35 am »

Quote from: JLM on 7 Mar 2016, 02:23 am

Sorry to confuse. Yes, single driver speaker owners do get to pick their amp. And many pick tube amps (which is all but impossible to find built into a "true" active speaker. Note that there are a very few active speakers that have externally mounted amps (to allow for use of physically bigger amps and smaller or specially shaped speakers like the Munro Egg 150).

Active designs can be had for relatively cheap. For instance the JBL LSR305 is a reasonably well respected active 2-way with 5 inch woofer that sells for $300/pair and are rated down to 41 Hz. I'd say impossible to find decent passives with that performance, including the necessary amp.

Active designs allow for a very direct connection between amp and driver. And the crossover are low voltage designs that can be much more sophisticated. (For instance the crossover in the $400/pair concentric Equator D5 are each factory tweaked with built-in DSP to provide highly matched pairs before shipping.) This produces markedly improved dynamics, flatter frequency response (a revelation in itself), and almost greatly extended/increased bass response compared to comparable passive speakers.

The real challenge of finding active speakers for home use is the fact that most are designed for studio work so they have a dry/analytical presentation that can be fatiguing. Make no mistake, active studio monitors typically are very accurate, to get to the correct mix as quickly as possible. But audiophiles want to be entertained and their fancies to be tickled (variations of euphoria, which explains why so many different home speakers are in the market). So as always, listen for yourself.

Thanks JLM,nothing wrong with single drivers driven by separate amps with electronic crossovers (active filters) etc, i'm not into high end anymore it cost a lot to buy/make etc

like i said no disrespect intended

Best Regards...

restrav · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 03:12 pm »

this is the insides of the sony:

you see the power supply section, the digital video board in the middle and the DAC in the back

a shot with the digital video board removed:

here's the amp silicon:

you see the MOSFET in push pull config and the resistor behind them

behind speaker terminals (surround):

Behind the speaker terminals front (the ones that are sued for stereo speakers)

AC input stage

this is the DAC board with the DSP mounted on it

DSP removed

JohnR · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 03:13 pm »

sorry but your images don't show

JohnR · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 03:18 pm »

Maybe you could reduce them to normal screen size? Say 600-800 pixels wide?

restrav · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 03:21 pm »

wprking on it. why doesnt the forum auro resize like other forums? you know, make a small preview and go to full size when clicked.

JohnR · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 03:25 pm »

Quote from: Dadbeh on 7 Mar 2016, 03:21 pm

wprking on it. why doesnt the forum auro resize like other forums? you know, make a small preview and go to full size when clicked.

It DOES!!!

If you actually upload them to the forum, that is.

If you just put them somewhere else, and then expect magic - well I guess that doesn't work.

restrav · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 03:31 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 7 Mar 2016, 03:25 pm

It DOES!!!

If you actually upload them to the forum, that is.

If you just put them somewhere else, and then expect magic - well I guess that doesn't work.

done. thanks for the tip.

restrav · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Mar 2016, 03:51 pm »

The Elac's are not in yet but my impression so far from the sony is that it is not higher quality as far as the analog circuit is concerned compared with cheaper AVRs. it's just got more input/outputs. not impressed.