The LAB is now a DBT DISCUSSION FREE zone!!!

Occam · « **on:** 26 Oct 2004, 09:19 pm »

Any posts discussing or referencing double blind testing in the LAB circle will henceforth be deleted. (posts discussing 5 string banjos will be dealt with in the same manner).

This is not because I don't believe in DBT, but for this population and environment, such exchanges are as fruitful as pissing into the wind.

rosconey · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Oct 2004, 09:35 pm »

dam and i just picked up a 4 neck 20 string banjo

Andrikos · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Oct 2004, 09:47 pm »

mine is a 20 neck 4 string banjo...

rosconey · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Oct 2004, 09:51 pm »

i tried a dbt with one of those against mine

Andrikos · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Oct 2004, 10:14 pm »

I guess we're both heading for post deletion...

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Oct 2004, 11:11 pm »

Funny; I don't recall mentioning anything about DBT's. I did say that wire doesn't "burn -in or break in". There is no physical evidence to support that.
I am beginning to think that some folks on this forum either can't read or can't spell. Say it ain't so!
Josh: Solder doesn't break in either. It has been known to break under mechanical stress however.

d.b.
GO RED SOX

JohnR · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Oct 2004, 11:28 pm »

Perhaps the real problem is your attitude.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Oct 2004, 11:32 pm »

I really don't do much DIY'ing (aside from cables), but I don't see why DBT is taboo here. Has there ever been even a single arguement arising from DBT here? I've never seen one. Banning references to religion or politics makes sense: those topics are purely opinion, don't relate to audio, and always end in a fight. But DBT meets none of those criteria.

Seems to me that this prohibition will serve no useful purpose, but as no references have been made to DBT I guess it won't do much harm, either.

I do agree about the banjo thing, however.

John B · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Oct 2004, 11:38 pm »

Quote

I did say that wire doesn't "burn -in or break in". There is no physical evidence to support that.

There's no physical evidence to support that it doesn't break in either. From my listening experiences sonic changes do occur over time with new wire; and those are not subtle changes either. My latest foray into new speaker wire was a big let down when I hooked them up. Everything was compressed sounding and brittle, with a very limited soundstage. About a 100 hours later the darn soundstage got huge, with much air between the instruments. Whereas in the beginning everything was bunched up in the center stage or the sound hovered near the speakers. If that's not break-in, do tell me what it is. And don't go for the ears breaking in thing, that's lame. I put my old speaker wire back on when the soundstage of the new wire was so disappointing, and it blossomed right back to where it was before. But no pain no gain, I worked my way through the hours needed on the new wire, and now it is even better than the old stuff. Break-in, get right with it, because it do exist, whether you can prove it or not is beside the point

byteme · « **Reply #9 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 12:16 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

Banning references to religion or politics makes sense: those topics are purely opinion, don't relate to audio, and always end in a fight.

Ya, stick to the facts, like the PACK IS BACK AND EN ROUTE TO WINNING THE NFC NORTH ONCE AGAIN! Favre again started raining offense down on the opposition once he's gotten injured (concussion) and now with the sprained wrist he should be UNSTOPPABLE! We've got a 400lb. boat anchor back in the middle of the line on defense and Ahman had velcro surgically attached to his fingers!

To stay on topic, I did a DBT with Ahman before and after the velcro surgery and could clearly hear the difference - two weeks no fumbles.

Occam · « **Reply #10 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 02:13 am »

Let me clear the air here. Prior to accepting this auspicious post, I asked members of the Council (The Powers That Be) if I could establish posting rules specific to the Lab. That question was specific to my feeling on the tedious bickering I've endured about DBT, null hypotheses, epistemology, experimental design.... It has nothing to do with my views on its validity. I did this for over 30 years in my professional life. I also see these neverending political, partisan arguments on audio boards, that are usually, second hand at best. And they never stop, and do not lead to greater understanding of anything.

My action had nothing to do with anyone's specific post. This arbitrary meglomanical power was a condition of my acceptance of the role of faciliator of the LAB.

If such a discussion is of great import to you, I would suggest that you use Goggle and find a venue (or Circle) that is more hospitable to such explorations. It is a very interesting subject of inquiry. I simply do not wish to be invovled in an environment where I have to deal with the inevitable ensuing squabbles.

I'm going to leave this thread open for 24 hrs. Then I'm going to arbitrarily delete those posts I choose by whim. Then I'll lock the thread.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #11 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 04:33 am »

Occam, I'd definately suggest deleting some post here, espcially the ones filled with specious falsehoods about the FudgePackers being "back."

I know 1-2 games without a fumble is a helluva streak for Green, but it hardly signals a return to dominance.

Anyway, I still think it's throwing out the baby with the bath water, but I can see why you want to ban the discussions. Hey, the whole point of being a Facilitator is the arbitrary exercise of power!

One thing I'd probably have done differently though- I'd have posted the policy as a sticky & closed it right away. Make it an announcement, not a debate.

That would have prevented Byteme's delusion rantings about GB, at least!

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #12 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 04:47 am »

Congrats Paul on your new position...

WerTicus · « **Reply #13 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 06:01 am »

yay occams definatly the man for the job.... awesome!

now where did i put my 5 string banjo?!

kana813 · « **Reply #14 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 07:16 am »

Occam- Good luck with your position. Sure glad they dumped the last Lab facilitator.

Mudcat · « **Reply #15 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 11:12 am »

Quote from: Occam

Any posts discussing or referencing double blind testing in the LAB circle will henceforth be deleted. (posts discussing 5 string banjos will be dealt with in the same manner).

This is not because I don't believe in DBT, but for this population and environment, such exchanges are as fruitful as pissing into the wind.

And some people are afraid of the truth!

Lost81 · « **Reply #16 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 01:47 pm »

Quote from: Mudcat

And some people are afraid of the truth!

While there are others who claim to be in sole possession of the one absolute truth

The way I see it, it is no different from the Christian fundamentalism or Wahibbism

Some individuals require epic quests to find meaning in their lives, I guess; whether it is lugging an assault rifle in Iraq or banishing ignorance on audiophile forums with DBT postings

-Lost81

Mudcat · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 02:16 pm »

Quote from: Lost81

While there are others who claim to be in sole possession of the one absolute truth

Whatever I say is the truth, shall be the truth.

Quote from: Lost81

The way I see it, it is no different from the Christian fundamentalism or Wahibbism

I agree since, for the most part, the truth in religion is totally faith based. If you sit down and think about it, science does not have all the answers yet, and never will. When you think you have all the answers, there will be new questions. It took about 90 year to prove some of Einsteins theories. High end audio has been around for what 30, 40 years. Snake Oil cable shysters have been around for what 10, 15 years. For the most part, this isn't important enough for scientists to delve into. That is why you have the BS marketing that ignorant people buy into. They're not buying science, they buying BS.

Quote from: Lost81

Some individuals require epic quests to find meaning in their lives...or banishing ignorance on audiophile forums with DBT postings

Who me? I'm just trying to let people know that there are less expensive ways that avoid BS like burn-in machines, cryo treatments, and time corrected wires. And I have the mathmatical skills and technical background to back it up (I hope).

Lost81 · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 02:36 pm »

Ah, but are you blessed with the magical powers to necessary to comprehend the mysteries that lie behind the Shaki Stone?

Sorry, couldn't resist:

Cheers,
-Lost81

nathanm · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Oct 2004, 02:46 pm »

I'm with Mudcat on this one, but the point is - the folks don't care, they have their beliefs and they want to discuss them without getting into an argument about it. And remember; cable burn-in isn't some silly little audiophile time preoccuupier, it's a radical and genius thought process which is pushing the envelope of science out further than we've ever dreamed. So really, it's you crazy EE wackos with your pocket protectors who are holding the field of audio reproduction back! The cable burn-in illuminati are more akin to being the Stephen Hawkings of the hifi realm. They are out there on the cutting edge, slashing through the steely, entrenched idelogies with their golden cillia. Their work in the field today will lead us into a world we cannot even imagine, where your auntie will be able to give you the time and date of your digital IC's birth and how long it has been in use. When spinning those quaint SACDs in the nursing home our great great grandchildren will be hearing not just the ancient voices of today's artists, but constructing before their eyes a precise and accurate molecular model of cable dielectric. For this we should not challenge and aruge with these pathmakers, but rather sit in quiet reverence and admiration.