Long time owner of RS5 based 3T's, but just tried tube amp for the first time

OmahawkSCM · « **on:** 4 Feb 2016, 03:51 pm »

I, like most of us, have been shuffling my system around for a few years. Equipment looked like Mac mini FLAC/Oppo 970 -> Teac 501 -> Yamaha a501 -> Rhythmik F12 and either Vapor Breeze or Omega 3T. I have BJC connecting everything and GIK room treatments. So MSRP about 4200 or 5500 depending on speaker used. I had always read on audiocircle how well low powered tube amps had worked well with Omega's but never tried because of the (relatively) high cost of tube amps. I read review of this amp http://www.amazon.com/GemTune-Class--Tube-Amplifier-EL34-B/dp/B00DRUY6EG/ref=sr_1_48?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1454526387&sr=1-48 , the GemTune X-1 amplifier. I figured that, for $300, I didn't have much to lose.

So I unhooked my Vapor's, the Rhythmik, and the Yamaha amplifier. I hooked the 3T's into the tube amp using the supplied tubes. The sound is so smooth. I love the way it just lets me listen/feel/enjoy the music as opposed to analyzing it. I mean, really, what's the point of the 5k system if all you're doing is nitpicking it? I found myself nodding my head and tapping my toes so much more than before. Many reviewers on amazon say that you def need to tube roll to get decent results. So I'm hoping that those tubes provide me with even greater joy. It looks to be about 70 to replace all tubes.

Anyways, this is *just* an entry level tube amp. If things remain this way, I'll probably grab either a decware or coincident. Anybody have any suggestions/tips for my system?

Almost forgot, here is a picture. The IQ is terrible, sorry.

DBC · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Feb 2016, 05:34 pm »

OmahawkSCM,

Welcome to the world of tubes. I currently have Omega Super Alnico Monitors. Here is my journey with Decware for what it is worth.

Almost 15 years ago I purchased my first Decware, a Zen Select. Since that time I've been to Decware at least 4 times to listen to all there amps & speakers. Once I went thinking I would move up in power in the Decware line. I ended up purchasing a new at that time Super Zen. Last Fall I went to DecFest and ended up getting my Super Zen upgraded to the current UFO version (a sizable sound upgrade I might add).

IMO the entire line of Decware amps all sound great but none sound better to my ear than the Zen UFO if you have speakers that can shine with 2 watts. Decware and Omega really are a special match. Decware produces some fine speakers but I think the Omega's do better on 2 watts. I have a large room and do not lack for volume at all.

I've been to Decfest 3 times over the years and it's always interesting. The Little Zen gets a lot of play, it's the one amp that all other Decware amps are judged by. Everyone wants to know, Do the more powerful amps sound as good as the Little Zen ???

CSI · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Feb 2016, 05:36 pm »

I've owned lots of great amps, tube and solid state, and am currently running Decware (Torii Jr. in one system, Mini Torii in another). I have also owned Omega's in the recent past. Considering where you are on your journey I would recommend you acquire a Decware Mini Torii and never look back. I predict that, if you do this, it will be the first amp you've ever owned that makes you say, "I can't imagine ever selling this thing".

DaveC113 · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Feb 2016, 05:48 pm »

For tubes I'd look at NOS Winged-C, RFT or Japanese tubes made with old Mullard equipment, with seams on the top of the glass for EL-34s. Looks like it uses a single 6SL7, those are common, not sure what's best there but Sylvania is generally a good brand, most NOS versions will probably be good, even the Soviet tube that it comes with is probably ok. It is a basic amp so don't put too much into it...

Put IsoAcoustics stands between your speakers and stands. Looks like the extra height might be good.

My cables would help too... probably biggest bang for the buck is SL17 speaker cables or D1 IC cables.

The TEAC DAC is very soft-sounding and not detailed or precise, feeding it with a MM directly is not the best solution either. But a new ESS DAC chip is out this year, by the end of '16 there should be some new DACs out using it that are less sensitive to being fed with a noisy computer and should offer better performance for the price, so think about the possibility of replacing your source in a year or so. ELAC's new Roon based server is worth looking into as well, that + a better DAC would be transformative.

Canada Rob · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Feb 2016, 05:54 pm »

Being a dealer going on 7 years, a lot of gear goes through my hands. I've had various SE84's from the C+ to the Super Zen Select and to this day it remains my reference amp by which I judge all others by. The Basic SE84UFO will light up your Super 3T's, not only with that fluid warm tube sound, but with detail, speed, and highly focused 3D imaging that is both deep and wide. Even an older Zen will be amazing with Omegas.

jorgen · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Feb 2016, 06:12 pm »

Quote from: CSI on 4 Feb 2016, 05:36 pm

I've owned lots of great amps, tube and solid state, and am currently running Decware (Torii Jr. in one system, Mini Torii in another). I have also owned Omega's in the recent past. Considering where you are on your journey I would recommend you acquire a Decware Mini Torii and never look back. I predict that, if you do this, it will be the first amp you've ever owned that makes you say, "I can't imagine ever selling this thing".

LoL

I have a miniTori, and i have said those words many many times. Check for used one if it is a strech, they are build to last, and if possible Get a stepped attenuator, and headphone out.

DBC · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 12:22 am »

Thought I would mention these observations,

I have heard the Zen UFO (2 watts), Mini Torri (4 watts) and Rachael (6 watts) played Back to Back to Back at Decware using their HDT Speakers. To my ear the Mini Torri and Rachael did not play any louder than the Zen UFO despite the differences in specified power output. All three played plenty loud but for the life of me there was little if any difference in their Max Volume output. My only point here is if you think an extra few watts from the Mini Torri or Rachael are going to provide a good bit more volume, well they don't really.

The Mini Torri and Rachael are fine sounding amps, I could be happy with either one. When you hear all three Back to Back to Back in the same room with the same speakers the differences are more than a bit subtle. The Zen UFO has a bit more Speed, Detail and Transparency which I prefer. The Mini Tori and Rachel are a bit warmer with not quite as much fine detail and I'm sure some will prefer the warmer sound. The Mini Torri is a tube roller and tweakers dream if you are into that.

seikosha · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 12:50 am »

I own both the Mini Toriii and a Zen UFO. With Omegas, the Mini Torii definitely will play louder and you do notice the added power, however, the Zen plays loud enough for me and I actually prefer the sound of it as well.

MarkR7 · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 01:08 am »

For kicks, I tried a recently acquired SE84UFO (this was a 2013 SE84ZS (Select), before being upgraded with the new UFO transformers by Decware a few months ago) with its whopping 2 wpc. It truly sounded fantastic, and I can see what all the raves and fuss are about, but on my Omega Alnico monitors (in a 20x25+ room), it just isn't enough for me ....

I guess I like to play at higher levels, where peaks will come in at 92-95db. I bet 8wpc would be fine, as is my current 18wpc SET amp.

I will try the UFO on a pair of Omega 3i (RS5s) in a few weeks, and we'll see how it does there. With a smaller room, more efficient and smaller drivers, and a couple of subwoofers, it might be just fine... Otherwise..... bye, bye...

rar1 · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 03:47 am »

Over the last dozen years, I have owned the Omega Super 3i (narrow cabinet), the 3T, and now the Super 7 MK2.

I found that tubes made the biggest difference with the original Super 3i's. The Super 3i's play noticeably louder than the 3T's and tubes could also tame some of the honking I would hear on vocals with the 3i's. The 3T's play smoother than the original Super 3i's, but I thought the 3i's had more energy, whether it was with solid state (Marantz 2240 receiver) or tube (Prima Luna PL 2 integrated) amplification.

The Super 7's MK2 offer the best of both worlds ... play smooth, loud, fast and exciting. Using a Rega Brio R integrated as I have added a turntable to the mix.

Rich

Canada Rob · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 05:32 am »

All reference here is to the current RS5 Super 3i:

The Super 3i and the Super 3T can get a little heavy handed with the bass on the desktop if the speakers are too close to the backing wall and/or you're running an amp with heavy bass, or source that's heavy on the bass. If ever there was a transparent, non-midbass hump, non-honk speaker it's the Super 3i. The RS5 based Super 3i is easily the finest small monitor I've heard to date. Put them with a good fast, musical sub and they go to another level - everything improves.

The Super 3i does have a little more life than the Super 3T. It's interesting what a change in cabinet dimensions can do, because they are the same cabinet volume and port diameter.

rar1 · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 11:06 am »

Hi Bob -

I should have made myself a little clearer as my post was referring to the original Super 3i from ten years back that did not employ the RS5 driver. The standard configuration for the Super 3i was on the wide baffle, not the narrow cabinet configuration that you see today and how I had had the speakers made up back then.

I purchased the 3T when first introduced 3 years back and did a mini review in these pages back then. The 3T/ RS5 combination does not have the honking that I would notice on some vocals like Sinatra on 'Night and Day' with the previous 3i generation driver. And who knows, it was 10 years back, it could have been the way the speakers were placed, etc.

The previous generation 3i was a very good speaker. I find the Super 7 mk2 a fantastic speaker that takes the strengths of the 3i's and extends it several fold.

jorgen · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 12:08 pm »

Just to be clear, I do not prefer the MT over the superZen, haven't heard this amp in my system yet and can't compare. With the same speakers, the MT can in theory give an extra 3db SPL and the Rachael maybe 4,5 do extra, that to me isn't more than noticeable and not a factor one should give to much weight. None of these amps will tear down the walls, so if that is important go to something different. I have stated many times, my listening habits makes me rather to turn the volume down rather up.

pocomo · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 01:29 pm »

[This is my first post in the forum]

@OmahawkSCM's opening post really resonates with me. I am the new owner of a set of older 3XRS's with the hemp cones, plus a DeepHemp. These were the beginning of my re-entry into music and hifi, after an extended absence.

The XRS's are amazingly transparent, but I do find myself mostly analyzing rather than enjoying the music. Part of this is the newness and the continual tuning we tend to do. Also, I find my ears tend to get a bit tired after a couple of hours. I am using a pretty decent amp, a Rogue Sphinx integrated hybrid, which is Class-D with a tube preamp stage.

By way of comparison, I moved my 20+ year old speakers (Reference 3a MMC monitors) to my office at work (see attached picture). I hooked them up to a Chromecast and a $179 EL84 tube amp from tubedepot.com. The speakers are in rough shape after having been attacked by cats and little kids over the last 15 years or so (see second picture). I find I am enjoying listening to this setup without any stress at all. It sounds fantastic to my ears; not super detailed but still very airy, fast and lifelike. I'm wondering is the cheap push-pull amp is making all the difference? Maybe it's time to take this little thing home for the weekend and try it out.

I somewhat dislike the inefficiency of a tube design; the heat production is just crazy (and not very cat friendly

). But maybe that's just the price that must be paid for musical enjoyment.

In any case I am loving the XRS's and once I get happy with the current setup I will upgrade to RS5s and take it to the next level.

DBC · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 02:55 pm »

Quote from: seikosha on 5 Feb 2016, 12:50 am

I own both the Mini Toriii and a Zen UFO. With Omegas, the Mini Torii definitely will play louder and you do notice the added power, however, the Zen plays loud enough for me and I actually prefer the sound of it as well.

seikosha, glad to hear another opinion on how loud the Zen UFO and Mini Torri can play.

The listening room at Decware is somewhat large with large openings in the ceiling and side walls leading into the rest of the building. The room also has a lot of treatments (absorption & diffusion) on all walls. These factors may explain in part why I didn't detect much difference in Max Volume output between the two ??? I can imagine that in a smaller and more lively acoustic space the differences could be more apparent.

MarkR7, all good points.

My room is 16" x 22" with large openings into other areas of the home. Like you at times I like to play loud (listen to a lot of Classic Rock). For my taste I use sub's to reinforce the low end and it makes a big difference in a larger space (Zen UFO + SAM's + Twin Subs). Look forward to hearing your impressions of the UFO with subs.

The thing I like so much about the UFO / SAM combination is how wonderful they sound at low to moderate volume. So much Detail / Dynamics that I find myself enjoying the music at lower volumes more than before.

Canada Rob · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 03:53 pm »

Quote from: pocomo on 5 Feb 2016, 01:29 pm

[This is my first post in the forum]

@OmahawkSCM's opening post really resonates with me. I am the new owner of a set of older 3XRS's with the hemp cones, plus a DeepHemp. These were the beginning of my re-entry into music and hifi, after an extended absence.

The XRS's are amazingly transparent, but I do find myself mostly analyzing rather than enjoying the music. Part of this is the newness and the continual tuning we tend to do. Also, I find my ears tend to get a bit tired after a couple of hours. I am using a pretty decent amp, a Rogue Sphinx integrated hybrid, which is Class-D with a tube preamp stage.

By way of comparison, I moved my 20+ year old speakers (Reference 3a MMC monitors) to my office at work (see attached picture). I hooked them up to a Chromecast and a $179 EL84 tube amp from tubedepot.com. The speakers are in rough shape after having been attacked by cats and little kids over the last 15 years or so (see second picture). I find I am enjoying listening to this setup without any stress at all. It sounds fantastic to my ears; not super detailed but still very airy, fast and lifelike. I'm wondering is the cheap push-pull amp is making all the difference? Maybe it's time to take this little thing home for the weekend and try it out.

I somewhat dislike the inefficiency of a tube design; the heat production is just crazy (and not very cat friendly ). But maybe that's just the price that must be paid for musical enjoyment.

In any case I am loving the XRS's and once I get happy with the current setup I will upgrade to RS5s and take it to the next level.

Hello pocomo,

Welcome to the Omega AudioCircle,

One of the hallmarks of Omega speakers is the fact they really reveal what is upline from them. Trying your tube amp on them may make the sound less analytical. Also try running something better than Chromecast for a front end using at least 16/44 files, whether your own or streaming Tidal. Cabling can also make a big difference.

OmahawkSCM · « **Reply #16 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 05:02 pm »

Quote from: DBC on 4 Feb 2016, 05:34 pm

IMO the entire line of Decware amps all sound great but none sound better to my ear than the Zen UFO if you have speakers that can shine with 2 watts. Decware and Omega really are a special match. Decware produces some fine speakers but I think the Omega's do better on 2 watts. I have a large room and do not lack for volume at all.

Are you referring to the SE84UFO2 that is currently on their website? If so, that would probably be my limit as far as pricing goes. Maybe I can find one used. Thanks for the recommendation.

OmahawkSCM · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 05:12 pm »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 4 Feb 2016, 05:48 pm

For tubes I'd look at NOS Winged-C, RFT or Japanese tubes made with old Mullard equipment, with seams on the top of the glass for EL-34s. Looks like it uses a single 6SL7, those are common, not sure what's best there but Sylvania is generally a good brand, most NOS versions will probably be good, even the Soviet tube that it comes with is probably ok. It is a basic amp so don't put too much into it...

The tube that came with it is labeled 6n8pj on the box. Is that interchangeable with the 6SL7?

OmahawkSCM · « **Reply #18 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 05:14 pm »

Quote from: Canada Rob on 4 Feb 2016, 05:54 pm

Being a dealer going on 7 years, a lot of gear goes through my hands. I've had various SE84's from the C+ to the Super Zen Select and to this day it remains my reference amp by which I judge all others by. The Basic SE84UFO will light up your Super 3T's, not only with that fluid warm tube sound, but with detail, speed, and highly focused 3D imaging that is both deep and wide. Even an older Zen will be amazing with Omegas.

That seems to be that amp that folks around here like. A small part of me hopes it is not fanboy-ism. But it really seems like genuine loyalty here.

OmahawkSCM · « **Reply #19 on:** 5 Feb 2016, 05:16 pm »

Quote from: jorgen on 4 Feb 2016, 06:12 pm

LoL

I have a miniTori, and i have said those words many many times. Check for used one if it is a strech, they are build to last, and if possible Get a stepped attenuator, and headphone out.

On the headphone out I agree 100%. Right now, my Teac has one so my Tube amp doesn't need one. BUT, if I replace my DAC (more likely than not), that will change. What does a stepped attenuator do?