[Scott F.]

I don’t know if you guys read last weeks update over at my old haunt TNT but Geoff Husband wrote an interesting article questioning the effectiveness of VTA in logical terms.

Geoff sited loads of articles on the web including Roy Gregory’s article in HiFi + where he states (emphatically) that he and others can hear the difference in VTA adjustments down to .019mm (reads point zero one nine mm) in height.
Keep in mind that the average diameter of a healthy human hair is .06mm (reads point zero six mm). Gregory’s stated audible differences are roughly equivalent to 1/3rd the diameter of a human hair.

Geoff’s article spawned threats of a lawsuit from Gregory for copyright infringement and defamation of character. Gregory wouldn’t settle for some minor changes in the article removing direct quotes pulled from his (Gregory’s) online article. Gregory wanted nothing less than the article pulled (as I’m told first hand).

Needless to say Geoff consulted an attorney and come to find out, Geoff is completely in the right with his referencing to Gregory’s online article. Geoff and Lucio made some very minor alterations to clean up the article and reposted it in this weeks update.

Here’s a link to the article
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html

If you noticed towards the end of the article, Geoff is currently conducting a controlled experiment with anyone that wants to participate (providing they have a VTA adjuster on their turntable). He has set it up as a true, controlled AB. The results should be repeatable by anyone that participates. He plans on correlating the results and posting them in a  future article.

Here is the link to the experiment
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_experiments_e.html

Personally, I completely agree with Geoff and his preliminary observations from a purely logical standpoint. It is a PITA adjust the VTA on my turntable (I use the Expressimo VTA adjuster on my Rega/Systemdek). When you look at the math behind VTA and realize the miniscule resulting alteration to the stylus rake angle (SRA), it makes me wonder what everybody hears.

That said, I feel your VTA should be adjusted to a set base point of (say) a 125 gram album (or some other reasonable starting point based on the average thickness of your vinyl collection) and let be for all other record weights.

When you think about what Geoff stated regarding quality assurance on record thickness, warpage and other detracting factors (cutting angle variations between pressing plants being the most notable), the typical vinylphile could drive himself crazy readjusting VTA for each and every album to get the ‘best’ sound. In fact, it could be nearly impossible to correct (via VTA) due to some of the inherent QA issues with vinyl.

Not saying VTA adjustment can’t be heard, just that for all intents and purposes, it's nearly pointless based on the varying factors of vinyl production.

Thoughts?


PS, I suggested that Geoff register here so that he could participte in the conversation. He's off to England over the next week so he may not be able to respond until he gets back.

[Wayne1]

Scott,

I have used on-the fly adjustable VTA for more than a few years and I feel it IS needed to bring out the most a piece a vinyl can give.

I started with a Lustre GST-801 arm. It has fairly coarse adjustments for VTA, but it is readily apparent that each album is slightly different and can benefit from a different VTA.

With the Teres and the new adjustable VTA adaptor, on the fly adjusting is easier and even more apparent. The Teres adjuster is calibrated to .001 inch. At least I can hear the difference.

I tend to set the VTA for most commercial releases and adjust when I play thicker vinyl. It is easy enough that the VTA can be adjusted for each album by ear.

I agree that using the Expessimo VTA adjuster is a PITA. There is no way to easily set VTA with that device by ear.

I will say that setting VTA for each album depend on what arm you use and how easy it is for you to adjust it.

With something like the Teres VTA adjuster it is no big deal.




Teres VTA adaptor

[GJHusband]

Hi,

I'm interested in your comments on being able to hear VTA to small limits. I know it's a big ask, but you're the first to flag up that you have a system capable of doing the experiment Scott referred to. Please try it and report back, trying to increase the knowledge base:-) Same goes for anyone else with such a tonearm

Cheers

Geoff

[andyr]

Hi,

I'm interested in your comments on being able to hear VTA to small limits. I know it's a big ask, but you're the first to flag up that you have a system capable of doing the experiment Scott referred to. Please try it and report back, trying to increase the knowledge base:-) Same goes for anyone else with such a tonearm

Cheers

Geoff

Hi, Geoff,

It's great that Scott referenced your TNT-Audio article and the test you have created (otherwise I might've missed it!).

I bought myself a Graham 2.2 a year ago ... coz after 15 years with a Dynavector DV505 I was sick of the (as you put it) "undo the allen bolt and wiggle" game.

This has a similar micrometer arrangement to the Tri-Planar for AHA.  I guess I'm also sceptical of those who say they they can hear minute differences in arm height ... but then there are trained palates who can tell not only the vineyard and the grape but whether one the grape stompers had tinea, so just coz I can't hear it doeasn't mean others can't!

All I can say is that a coupla months ago a mate came over and he got me to change the arm height from where I had set it bcoz he could hear a difference to violin string tone.  We kept moving the arm up until he was happy!  Of course, that is obviously only the best position for that record (that thickness, with that cutting head angle) but it's a better reference point than where I had it before.  If I can be bothered, I simply move it up or down a bit to try to match the different thicknesses of LPs (which seem to vary from 1.1mm to 2.2mm!!).

I shall endeavour to have him do your experiment with me but it will take a coupla months.  Hope you get some good responses though.

Regards,

Andy

[GJHusband]

Thanks Andy,

I don't care if it takes you 6 months, every extra result will increase the validity of the sample.

And thanks for the post - the only purpose of the original article was to make people think.

Cheers

G

PS the 'method' can be used to sort out all sorts of arguments, CD pens, cables, cryo valves etc - it's because there has been so little scientific rigour in these subjects that the level of debate is so poor.

[lcrim]

GJHusband:
Earlier this week I posted to this board:
"I realize I'm going to sound like you know who but, with the Technics 1200, VTA adjustment is simple and can be done on the fly, albeit very carefully. I usually lift the tonearm and change VTA settings and then drop it to listen for a bit, then lock it off when I'm satisfied.
On my SME arm, VTA adjustment is as medieval as the Rega.
To be frank about it, I've never heard the dramatic differences that are claimed by guys over on the Asylum."
Obviously the last is an observation and not an empirically derived truth.  I do think that variations in the height of the pivot point of a tonearm should affect change in the sound but it certainly hasn't been dramatic in my experience.  I am willing to give your experiment a try, however.

[GJHusband]

Hi Larry

Thanks for the reply. The 'idea' that is rolling around in my mind at the moment (and a lot of math is needed to work out + 'secret' info from manufacturers) is that if an arm has a very low centre of gravity, well below the pivot, the centre will be lifted when the arm height is lowered, but also moved forward, thus increasing tracking weight much more than with a 'balanced' arm where the weight will only be lifted and thus the difference in tracking weight be much less. A VPI for example has a very low centre of gravity so is it more sensitive to arm height changes. It's not a theory yet, just thinkign out loud, could be a way of explaining how everyone is right which I'm all for:-)

Do the experiments if you can


Off on holiday for a week - so bye:-)
Cheers

G

[JoshK]

Very interesting topic guys.  I must say I have just bought into the idea blindly, or atleast half blindly because the idea made sense to me, even scientifically. Whether or not it matters is of course subjective but could be quantified somewhat.

[Scott F.]

Hi Josh,

You may want to grab a couple of the local guys and give the experiment a whirl sometime.

Myself, I'm thinking about the VTA adjuster from Teres that Wayne mentioned. If I could figure out an easy way to get at it once it's installed on my Systemdek (it's a closed table) I'd like to try it and see if my suspisions are right.

[andyr]

Hi, Geoff,

Unless my grey matter is letting me down, I seem to remember in your articles you were musing about the c.o.g. of various arms and whether this affected their sensitivity to arm height?

Thinking about this, surely this concept is only relevant to non-unipivot arms?  Bcoz with a unipivot arm - like the Graham 2.2 - the arm wand/counterbalance weight assembly is simply resting (rocking!) on a needle-point ... so whatever mass is below this is irrelevant?

Am I correct here?

Regards,

Andy

[GJHusband]

Hi Andy

Sorry I've been a while but I've been away. No in fact it's unipivots which are most vulnerable to this. A gimballed arm can have it's centre of gravity on the stylus  pivot axis because it has lateral stability because of the horizontal bearing. The unipivot needs a little (like the Graham and Audiomeca) or a lot (like the Kuzma, VPI etc) of weight below the pivot to stop the arm just rolling. When the cartridge is raised that centre of gravity moves forward increasing tracking weight. If you take such an arm and balance it perfectly horizontal, then raise the cartridge end and let go this effect will cause the arm to swing back down to the horizontal position, i.e. raising the cartridge adds a downforce as the C of G moves forward. The VPI will have a bigger change in tracking force for such a move than say the Audiomeca because the c of g is further from the pivot and thus swings through a bigger distance, but you'd need sums and details of actual c of g position to work out how significant that might be.

Not all arms are created equal...

Cheers

G

[Uptown Audio]

There is no myth here. Some people can hear better than others and are more capable of discerning the VTA on a particular Lp. I would venture to say that most people can hear a significant increase in VTA, like say 2mm or more. Some people may claim to hear things that they cannot in reality, but that has nothing to do with the validity of VTA in general.
From personal experience, I can hear a change in the tone and dynamics from adjusting VTA with most all cartridges that I have tried. It may be that the better cartridges or at least those that are more sensitive, provide the most variation in sound relative to VTA.  I have also found that cartridges produce somewhat common results from the effects of adjustment and basically sound warmer and less dynamic with the front of the arm higher than level. When the front of the arm is lower than level the opposite is true and a more bright, more aggressive sound can be heard. Getting the arm level produces the most natural balance and optimum performance from the cartridge. The benefit of being able to adjust this from one record to another, to me at least, seems to be rather tiresome as the sonic differences are so small with minute changes. There is a beneift from my view of initially setting-up the table correctly or even with the arm a bit higher in the front depending upon the overall charachter of the system that it is in. Some systems can have a slightly hard edge tamed by having the rake angle a little more laid back. I would never recommend that it be done the other way with a more aggressive rake angle as that puts undue stress on the record and cartridge, but it can be heard and if someone wants to do that, then it's their record collection...  I use a Rega table and have the arm adjusted just about level, which I find to be very neutral and perfectly balanced (pardon the pun) tonally. I don't think that I would be effected enough by the slight difference that a particularly thin or thick record might make to ever be concerned about VTA "on the fly". That is just "way tweaky" to me and would interfere with my enjoyment of listening to records.
-Bill

[GJHusband]

Hi Bill

A good reply:-) As with 99.9% (OK I'm guessing) of music lovers you set a reasonable arm height and enjoy your music, the pragmatic view. The 0.1% change their arm height (and inevitably a host of other things) for every record - I personally don't know anyone who does it including all the staff at www.TNT-audio.com. Having a VTA tower is a lovely way of setting initial arm height but then for the rest of the time it's sitting there adding colourations (everything on an arm adds something), often compromising rigidity and certainly costing money. Often the true believers will buy a VPI for example, and have fun for a few weeks fiddling with VTA but then just give up the ghost and listen to music after which all that sophistication becomes a 'white elephant'.

IF arm height adjustment is critical down to 0.01mm as some claim then it is no more than a scientific curiosity to the vast majority of vinyl addicts. For those that do continue with the ritual of arm height adjustment on a record by record basis it is all part of the joy and mystique of vinyl that we all love so much and I envy them their dedication. (this is not irony)

The only snag is that every single one of the 0.1% post to newsgroups:-)

Still hoping for people to try the AHA experiment and clear the fog away...

All the best

Geoff