[G Georgopoulos]

Hold off making any decisions until the speakers have broken in and you've moved into the final room you mentioned.  Other than speakers I believe the room is the biggest factor in playback performance.  Room size/shape, speaker/listener setup, acoustic isolation, acoustic treatment, and proper bass proprogation are all bigger factors IME than software, sources, amplification, power, or cables.  Frankly if you can't develop a decent room, it's honestly better to have a modest in-room system and go for a good headphone system.

very well said JLM!

wait a minute ,source doesn't matter? you mean vinyl is IN not OUT for you!?..cheers 

[charmerci]

FYI - I'll be leaving this place on the 10th so treatments for this place aren't happening.


I'm not much of a headphone guy - even though I have about 4 pairs.

[Letitroll98]

I would echo the wait and see advice.  Whether the speakers break in or your ears do, doesn't much matter, the experience is improved.  And even in your new place, you can try some heavy blankets and/or big pillows and not spend any money on room treatments until you see if it works.  When you see that it does, diy absorbers and diffusers are inexpensive and pretty easy to make.  Anyway, hope things work out for you, they sure are nice looking speakers.

[JLM]

very well said JLM!

wait a minute ,source doesn't matter? you mean vinyl is IN not OUT for you!?..cheers 

It all matters, but software/source/amplification/power/cables less so.  The vinyl discussion is off topic, but here's hoping for a good 2016.   

[JLM]

FYI - I'll be leaving this place on the 10th so treatments for this place aren't happening.


I'm not much of a headphone guy - even though I have about 4 pairs.

I did headphones in college - perfect for dorms (or wherever you can't achieve a decent in-room environment). 

Your ruthlessly revealing speakers may end up being the most expensive component you ever bought.  Ignorance can indeed be blissful.

[charmerci]

Your ruthlessly revealing speakers may end up being the most expensive component you ever bought.  Ignorance can indeed be blissful.

Now you tell me!!! 

  And even in your new place, you can try some heavy blankets and/or big pillows and not spend any money on room treatments until you see if it works.  When you see that it does, diy absorbers and diffusers are inexpensive and pretty easy to make.  Anyway, hope things work out for you, they sure are nice looking speakers.

I'm going to be moving into a small room in a house with other people and thin walls. So the stereo going in my personal office so there's going to be a limit to absorbers and diffusers there as well as a volume limit there though maybe on the weekends? But, for example, there's a tatoo parlor down the hall and they work late nights. As many people here, I just like buying new and better stuff....


For now, I'm just going for a Audioquest Jitterbug and one new set of StrWire cables - both coming in on Saturday and a SurgeX power protector thanks to DaveC113. After that nothing can happen until late February after my return.

[WGH]

Time to crank up the Wayback Machine and go back 5 years to the dawn of digital music



Jitter was just being recognized as having a detrimental effect, USB - SPDIF converters were rudimentary and the XMOS chip wasn't invented yet. One tried and true method of reducing jitter was a real long SPDIF cable or using a 75 ohm attentuator.



A good place to start is Pat's thread on Reflections and attenuators
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90454.0

My thoughts regarding attenutors have their own thread
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91512.0

Where am I going with this? Just maybe the BMC Pure DAC isn't doing a good job at jitter rejection. I no longer use the attenuators because in the last 5 years my electronics have changed but I still have them. Charlie if you would like to try them out I will send them to you for free, I have two: a 6 dB and a 10 dB. If interested PM your address.

Wayne

[SJ David]

All of the reasons for the added harshness at high volumes sometimes don't get around to heat related power compression.

I don't think I saw what type of system you used before the new Philharmonics. Perhaps they were able to handle the high sound levels a bit differently compared to your new systems.

I have heard many small-woofer two-ways that sound fantastic and do things large multi-way systems can't do... up to a point. Your new speakers seem to use high quality components but the limiting factor- despite he apparent driver quality- is a small woofer trying to make high sound levels. That voice coil can heat up significantly which increases the resistance, which reduces woofer output relative to the tweeter, which can also alter the crossover effect on the response. Therefore, the system balance tilts upward to the treble and the perceived hardness/treble emphasis. Maybe.

[JLM]

Too good doesn't always equal revealing, or detailed.  My favorite speakers are the ones that have great tonality/musicality/imaging.  In my lexicon "resolution" means precise imaging that naturally enhances detail (like sharpening focus on a camera).  In the single driver speaker world Lowthers are the detail kings.  But it quickly gets to be too much (do I really want to know what type of resin or the brand of drums is being used?).  Having all that information thrust upon me makes my brain work too hard, being "forced" into analysis (left side brain) mode, when what I want from music is an emotional release.

[rajacat]

Maybe too much detail means that the speakers are picking up sounds, such as the musician lightly breathing, which you wouldn't normally hear at the live performance. They could be giving too much weight to extraneous sounds verses the music itself.

[Rocket]

Hi,

Are you listening to audiophile recordings?  If not try some and let us know if there is an improvement.  I think your system has components that are well matched but 'rubbish in is rubbish out' with high quality systems.

Cheers Rod

[charmerci]

Maybe too much detail means that the speakers are picking up sounds, such as the musician lightly breathing, which you wouldn't normally hear at the live performance. They could be giving too much weight to extraneous sounds verses the music itself.

All of the reasons for the added harshness at high volumes sometimes don't get around to heat related power compression.

I don't think I saw what type of system you used before the new Philharmonics. Perhaps they were able to handle the high sound levels a bit differently compared to your new systems.

I have heard many small-woofer two-ways that sound fantastic and do things large multi-way systems can't do... up to a point. Your new speakers seem to use high quality components but the limiting factor- despite he apparent driver quality- is a small woofer trying to make high sound levels. That voice coil can heat up significantly which increases the resistance, which reduces woofer output relative to the tweeter, which can also alter the crossover effect on the response. Therefore, the system balance tilts upward to the treble and the perceived hardness/treble emphasis. Maybe.

This could be a possible explanation but as I said in post #36 (p.2) I pulled out an old-ish Sony CD player and compared the same song at higher levels and the high frequency harshness (at the expense of some detail) was lessened. I'm a 35 year veteran of listening to lots of equipment and I'm pretty good at picking things up. (Ask my friend mikeeastman here on AC and he'll tell ya!)

The thing here was that I never imagined that the computer and it's connections could make such a difference fed into a decent tube DAC. Though I do have to say it's a wonderful sounding system if it's not cranked up on most recordings.

[charmerci]

Hi,

Are you listening to audiophile recordings?  If not try some and let us know if there is an improvement.  I think your system has components that are well matched but 'rubbish in is rubbish out' with high quality systems.

Cheers Rod

Oh I've listened to quite a number of different recordings. The thing was that my old standbys (Dave Grusin Discovered Again - Sheffield Labs and a few others) that were great on previous systems were not on this system. I've had to go through many of my albums and find new great sounding recordings.


As I wrote in #36 - it's the source/computer connections then the IC's though far less so and only because of the source problems.
(And yes, the room is the second problem but again, I can't do anything about it which is why I listen 8' away pulled against the wall.

[charmerci]

Well, there goes the hardware eq option. What media player do you use?

OK - a few more minor changes. Some felt around the tweeters, that softened the harshness ever so slightly. Example, there's a metallic sssss sound on some recordings when someone sings "ch" (as in child). Another set of Straightwire cables cut out another small level of harshness - at the expense of some midrange smoothness and clarity compared to the Soundsilver cables

Also, I've never played with my JRiver DSP - EQ and room correction. Setting the room correction so at my 8 foot listening distance helped somewhat. If I drop the 12, 14 and 16K eq down more than 3db each that gets rid of the loud volume harshness but obviously at the expense of high frequency accuracy - (dull). So I've kind of compromised by setting them down about 1.5 db each.

I am beginning to suspect though that the problem that I am hearing could be all if not mostly the IC cables.

[DaveC113]

OK - a few more minor changes. Some felt around the tweeters, that softened the harshness ever so slightly. Example, there's a metallic sssss sound on some recordings when someone sings "ch" (as in child). Another set of Straightwire cables cut out another small level of harshness - at the expense of some midrange smoothness and clarity compared to the Soundsilver cables

Also, I've never played with my JRiver DSP - EQ and room correction. Setting the room correction so at my 8 foot listening distance helped somewhat. If I drop the 12, 14 and 16K eq down more than 3db each that gets rid of the loud volume harshness but obviously at the expense of high frequency accuracy - (dull). So I've kind of compromised by setting them down about 1.5 db each.

I am beginning to suspect though that the problem that I am hearing could be all if not mostly the IC cables.

System synergy for sure... most 4N or lower purity silver wire adds some harshness but in the context of an overly warm system with speakers that aren't very detailed this can be a good thing. With those speakers harshness doesn't have a place to hide and at higher volumes some amount of glassiness or glare is just part of a ribbon tweeter. You might want to consider DIYing some IC cables using UPOCC copper wire.

The SurgeX will also remove another layer of harshness...

[charmerci]

The SurgeX will also remove another layer of harshness...

So I received it from Dave - (thanks for the deal - awesome!    ) and I've spent maybe about a half an hour with it not warmed up and it sure opened up the sound. (I never thought cables and electrical conditioning would make a difference but it does!) It wasn't so noticeable
until I reverted back to plugging my equipment back into the wall and the overall sound was just duller.


However! This is all good on the best sounding recordings at loud volumes (Fleetwood Mac - Warm Ways, Dave Grusin - Discovered Again). On some recordings (again we're talking loud), it seems to move the harshness to higher frequencies. So instead of "ch" sounds being harsh/tinny/metallic, it's the "s" sounds, making those recordings (i.e most of what I listen to  ) difficult to listen to at loud levels.

The biggest difference was with the computer plugged into the SurgeX, it now sounds comparable to the Sony CD player.

Thanks again Dave - it's a keeper!

[genjamon]

The biggest difference was with the computer plugged into the SurgeX, it now sounds comparable to the Sony CD player.

Ah HAH!!! This is solid evidence of what a great many posts have been telling you all along in this thread.  Power noise from your source is the key here.  The best solution would be to spend some real money on a custom server solution with linear power supplies and designed to minimize internal EFI/RMI.  Then your USB cable design wouldn't be super critical.  Absent the funding for this kind of solution, you can try a number of band-aids. 

Sources of noise to target:
1) noise from your laptop riding the 5V bus line in your USB cable and feeding that noise into your DAC
2) noise from your laptop riding the data lines in the USB cable and causing some havoc there
3) noise from your laptop riding the ground line in the USB cable and contributing to ground-plane noise that MAY be doing things in your DAC's processing of the signal

Strategies to consider:
A) Taping over the 5V pin on your USB cable (FREE) (assuming your DAC does not require the 5V).  If your DAC does require the 5V handshake or power supply, then a used AQVOX product (~$100?), or USB Disruptor product (~$50 I think) will help (they provide a separate new 5V from their own power supply, substituting for the noisy 5V from your laptop).  This addresses Source #1 above.
B) Uptone Audio Regen ($175 new, $150 or less used) unit will do all of the above in A), but will also clean up some of the noise in #'s 2 & 3 above through its reclocking circuits and resistors on the ground.  For $175 this could be a remarkably effective product for your situation - and there might be some used ones available for cheaper on here.  They seem to be popping up fairly frequently now.
C) Audioquest Jitterbug ($50 each) will benefit #'s 1, 2, and 3 above by filtering out a lot of the noise at the USB output from your laptop.  It doesn't eliminate the noise, but will damp it down a great deal.  I have even found great benefit from using two of them on my Auralic Aries with the high quality linear power supply. 

Of course there are a great many other products out there, especially those from iFi and Schiit that also work to clean up noise on USB lines.  I'm not as familiar with those, but I think they're a little pricier than the above, and often require adding another USB cable leg to your situation.  The above strategies don't require any of that complexity, or at least have the necessary components included with them.

[charmerci]

Wow - that's a lot to digest!


I forgot to add in the last post - though I mentioned it a while ago in an earlier post - that I'm getting a Jitterbug. It should be in today.

[genjamon]

If you can tape over the 5V pin on your USB cable and get away with it on your DAC, I think doing so and using the Jitterbug will accomplish just about everything you can given your budget - as far as addressing the weaknesses of your source laptop goes.

[Folsom]

If you can solder, consider dampening the CMC on the SurgeX, it might remove the harsh sound.