Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?

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Danny Richie

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #40 on: 18 Dec 2015, 03:12 pm »
My room is very similar to OP with dual flanking subs in the corners 14x18. Will single OB servo's work in the corners? Would more like 2' from wall work okay?

You really shouldn't put an OB sub near the corner of the room. If going with a single one then put it in the middle of the room.

Captainhemo

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #41 on: 18 Dec 2015, 04:50 pm »
You really shouldn't put an OB sub near the corner of the room. If going with a single one then put it in the middle of the room.

Not sure, but I think he may have meant using a single OB  H  on each side approx  2' from the front wall.

I'd not go  less than duals on either side.... I have a room that is slightly smaller (18.5 x 12) and I have duals on either side.  I'd say mine sit approx  3' to the center of the cabintets from the  front wall and they work  exceptionally well.
That being said, I've also  had the triples 12's in here and  they work even better but  they are  very dominating in appearence in a room this size. The extra 2 12" drivers add a  LOT more weight and what I'd call an amazng foundation. That extra "weight"  is even present at  very low listening volumes , yet when the SPL's rise, it  remains clean with no boom (true with either duals or triples)

These subs are so tunable, you don't  have to worry about over loading the room. I thought the triples would have been overkill in this room but not at all,  just  crazy  good ! They integrate seemlessly and are  incredibly musical, again true with  either the duals or triples.

If you go with the duals, you'll  never be wanting more, they  are that good. After you  throw the triples in the same room, you  just realize   amazingly, it couild  be even better    :thumb:

jay

blake18

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Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #42 on: 25 Dec 2015, 06:28 am »
i have two MFW-15 Turbo'd subs, I must say, I disagree with people who say they aren't musical, this is simply not true. They keep up no problem in my 2-channel critical listening sessions. I am no novice to sound, I have a fully acoustically treated and calibrated room, done my own speaker mods, built my own subs, set up many systems, so I'm no newbie. :P I have heard a couple of Rythmik 15" subs, and while they do sound great, they just cannot hold a candle to an MFW-15 Turbo, they just can't. Period.

blake18

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Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #43 on: 25 Dec 2015, 06:30 am »
There simply is not a better 15" subwoofer than an MFW-15 Turbo, nothing outpaces that beast in the price range.

Danny Richie

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #44 on: 27 Dec 2015, 05:05 am »
i have two MFW-15 Turbo'd subs, I must say, I disagree with people who say they aren't musical, this is simply not true. They keep up no problem in my 2-channel critical listening sessions. I am no novice to sound, I have a fully acoustically treated and calibrated room, done my own speaker mods, built my own subs, set up many systems, so I'm no newbie. :P I have heard a couple of Rythmik 15" subs, and while they do sound great, they just cannot hold a candle to an MFW-15 Turbo, they just can't. Period.

Apples and oranges. The MFW-15 Turbos are great subs and I am sure they have the power to bring down the house in a home theater application. But they really don't compare to the smaller, lighter weight, and much more controlled 12" servo subs.

Even the 15" Rythmik servo subs are on a different level in regards to speed, control, and even low frequency extension. 

ctviggen

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Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #45 on: 27 Dec 2015, 02:21 pm »
I thought the general consensus was that servo-driven subs are better for pretty much everything (including home theater)?  As an electrical engineer, they (servo-driven) make more sense to me.  As for open baffle, these also make a lot of sense to me, but having to put them into the room is more difficult, especially for HT applications.

genjamon

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #46 on: 27 Dec 2015, 05:10 pm »
Wow, nothing like complete disagreement to muddy the waters.  Alright, so from what I'm gathering there are differences of philosophy between the various designs - OB subs vs standard ported or sealed subs.  And there are proponents of each.  Here are some general impressions I have gathering thus far:

  • Sealed subs can go the lowest, and they are often the most controlled sound
  • Ported subs can go the loudest for a given power input, but are limited in how low the go by their port tuning frequency, and can sound a bit more boomy than an equivalently well-designed sealed sub
  • OB subs have dipole effects that can help with room smoothing, but are significantly less efficient than sealed or ported subs due to these very room cancellations - so it takes a lot more output and probably a lot more EQ to fully load the room.  People often talk about this in terms of "pressurizing" the room.

It sounds like Danny has done a good job of working within the general design limitations of OB subs by going with the servo designs, which improve overall performance and linearity of response, and help them to go down low accurately. 

Some of the PM conversations I've had with some of you have also advocated for the SWARM or multi-sub approach to smoothing out bass response.  I've been well aware of that method and have partially employed it in a past system to good effect, along with some EQ from the Behringer.  Though the OB approach from Danny also seems to partially mimick the benefits that a good multi-sub approach would provide.

Ok, so given all that, I have a few questions.

1)  Do I have the bullet points above at least close to accurate?

2) Could Danny or advocates of alternative approaches comment on the relative design compromises of your approach?  In Danny's case, he's done well to optimize an OB format subwoofer, but what are the potential negatives or limitations of that approach?  I find the comments often hint at these, but don't often comment explicitly on them.  Such as the issue of "pressurization" or loading of the room - not as fully as with a sealed/ported approach?  But more linear?  Every system has design compromises, and I'd like to know more about the limitations/compromises of OB bass.

3) Related to #2 above, why would an OB system be superior to a well-implemented multi-sub approach?

4) If I'm correct that my system really only needs additional support from 20-35hz, and given that my room has good bass acoustics without major nodes/nulls in this frequency range, why not just go with the single MFW sub?  Or a single BOW sub from Daedalus?  I'm not talking costs with regard to this question, as obviously those two options are in completely different price brackets - but just conceptually.  Why would a single OB H frame sub be superior to that kind of solution?


Thanks for the great discussion, everyone!

Oscillate

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #47 on: 27 Dec 2015, 05:41 pm »
From the BOW product page.

"We use a custom designed 12" short throw, high-efficiency (95db) driver in a VERY stiff cabinet..."

This sounds like they are using a professional audio sound driver from JBL, Eminence
or the like in a sealed cabinet. Since you seem to be considering going at least semi-DIY,
that could easily be duplicated with the help of one of the cabinet makers on this forum
and a pro-amplifier with DSP (Crown, Behringer, QSC, etc...) for a fraction of the cost.

...or you could go with one of Danny's OB solutions and be happy :)


Danny Richie

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #48 on: 27 Dec 2015, 07:38 pm »
1. On the bullet points. Actually a ported sub allows for lower extension, and the sealed sub will have a lower order roll off that starts higher up in frequency range. So the ported version will play lower.

And what often makes them more boomy is how solid (or not solid) that cabinet design is. The ported sub also brings a group delay to the table that can be a drawback.

OB subs aren't necessary less efficient either. Their output levels are frequency dependent. It is in the lower ranges that they start giving up output. This is not however an issue with our servo controlled systems. And no additional EQ is needed. The system is designed to maintain a linear response. They will give you plenty of output. But pressurizing the room is not what you are looking for if quality is at the for front. Pressurizing the room is what you don't want.

Imaging sitting in front of a great drummer at a set of drums. It is an outdoor setting. Drums are open baffle. And nothing recreates them like open baffle speakers. Or in this case open baffle woofers. Now imagine how differently the drums would sound played to the same level in a small room. The drums load the room and cause a lot of room boom. A sealed or ported sub works the same way. An OB sub is like taking the drums back to the great outdoors. They reproduce the playback, but without the room boom.

2. As for alternative approaches. The swarm configuration is very effective at evening our the room load especially down low. We use additional subs in the rear of the room to even out the room loading at shows, and this is with OB subs up front. The drawback to the swarm configuration is that is gets more costly to implement.

3. Pressurizing the room excites the walls, causes them to flex and resonant. So you are then adding in additional noise. And it really doesn't matter how good your subs are if you are causing room related noise with it. The OB configuration minimizes this problem. When the room is even loaded then you do away with room boom. Room boom is nothing but a problem. OB bass does away with a boxed sound as well. And cabinet wall resonances that are an issue with all boxed designs. So the OB design can be cleaner from the source too.

4. I think the real question is why go with a lesser quality, heavier and slower alternative? If you are looking for quality bass reproduction then the servo controlled 12" woofers that we offer are un-matched. Add open baffle to that and it takes things up to yet another level. There are no other open baffle servo controlled woofer systems on the market. So it is easy for me to say that nothing else really compares. Everything else is an apples to oranges comparison.

gab

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Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #49 on: 27 Dec 2015, 08:21 pm »
some of you may find this paper of interest:

http://www.musicanddesign.com/DP_woofer_room.html

gab

ebag4

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #50 on: 27 Dec 2015, 08:51 pm »
I have an infinite baffle sub ( 4 ea. AE IB 15 drivers driven by 2500 watt Behringer amp) for my HT room, but for my 2 channel music room I have  a pair of the 12" servo subs in "H" alignment, I can't imagine anything better for music.  I may try another alignment, perhaps a "U" baffle, but the servo subs will be a part of the mix.  I can't imagine a more musical bass solution.

Best,
Ed

Joemamma

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #51 on: 27 Dec 2015, 09:01 pm »
From personal experience, I would never go back to any type of boxed subwoofer.  I can't stand listening to them anymore after getting my first taste of open baffle sound.  The boomy resonating sound gets really annoying now.  Of course, you have to have the room to accommodate them.  But make room!!!!  These are such an excellent product.  So many people are spending a fortune on those JL audio subs and those behemoth ported subwoofers, the word needs to get out.  BTW I have the gr research wedgies with 3 8's underneath.  I like them so much I am going to add some 12's in an h-frame.

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #52 on: 27 Dec 2015, 09:49 pm »
Note that I am a fan of Danny's servo subs both sealed and OB; I've heard the OBs often enough, and have owned sealed box versions more than once, only selling to downsize, never to replace or upgrade.

That said, some possible compromises for the OB:

Limited off-axis output.  This is a good thing for managing the room to improve quality of sound when critically listening, but might not work out so well for you if most of your listening is more casual.  If you need very low frequency output while walking around the room/house/condo, a box of some kind might be the better way to go.  You could always add more drivers to increase total output, but for many this is a solution with a finite practical limit.  This also goes for filling a larger dedicated room with OB sound.  Danny's OB servo drivers are purpose-built overachievers in this regard, but still something to keep in mind.

Space/positioning requirements.  Like anything OB, these really should be pulled out a ways in to the room - three feet at a minimum, usually anecdotally more seems to equate to better.  You can get away with less, but with some compromises in the sound quality characteristics you're chasing after specifically by going OB.  Caution must be taken to keep in mind that for an OB speaker, the room becomes the box in which it must play nice, and the more open air you can get to get the speaker as far away from that "box" as possible, the better your results.  There is a little more leeway to be had with the side walls, but I have heard a noticeable improvement even there with additional space.  Domestic tranquility or practical limitations of shared-room environments might prohibit usage where a box against a wall may not.  Also, frustratingly, OB subs solve a lot of challenges in very small rooms, but again due to positioning needs, there might not be enough floor space available to put them where they need to be to work if you don't want or can't have a possibly fairly near field setup with a single listening chair.

Intended usage.  Many people have their systems fill duties both for music and movies.  If you are an action or effects movie kind of person, as discussed earlier, it is easier and cheaper to get THX/Dolby reference SPL levels (often times specifically intended to pressurize a (also to be fair, to-spec purpose built, likely overbuilt bunker-like) room in ways explicitly counter to what the OB design is meant to do using boxed subs of some kind.  For this, a swarmed sub approach or an IB Ed mentioned might be preferred even to just a single, big, high quality sub to deliver quality bass to as many seats in the room as you can, accepting  that you are compromising getting the absolute "best" bass at one seat in the exchange.  I can say from experience, though, even if you enjoy that kind of movie, if you don't listen at reference volume levels and are not in an overly big room, the servo subs in boxes pick up details many other solutions miss while still delivering bass you can feel. 

Aside, speaking from the perspective of a music-only system, some folks prefer their bass to kick them in the chest more than they value very low articulation (or don't listen to anything needing output below 30Hz or so), others look for detail first and shaking their ribcage is a far second (even if that detail needs to be delivered for an 18Hz note to get all of what is in the music), depending on tastes and music preferences.  One path may be easier to achieve one's primary goals than another.  Danny's example of a drum kit outdoors is a good one, but if your goal is to recreate the experience of an amplified band playing in an enclosed small venue through stacks of on stage or in the club bass speakers, a boxed sub solution might actually get you closer to your intended original source than an OB.  I say that knowing full well that that flies in the face of the priorities and goals of a broad swath of the average audiophile I have met, and although it may not even be my personal priority on any given day, it is no less valid when someone is picking out equipment to make a music system that makes that person personally happy.

So, I guess from my experience and understanding, I don't think it is the quality of sound or advantages OB subs can provide that are taken to task in comparing to sealed or ported box solutions, but whether they are on the table as an option for you given the compromises they call for in implementation, and how closely their compromises align with your intended usage.   I think the discussion starts with picking the best plausible tool for the job, or another way, determine what you CAN'T use due to unacceptable compromises, then look at the choices you have among what is left.

mlbrand

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #53 on: 27 Dec 2015, 11:15 pm »
Great write-up Jonathan, you nailed it!  :thumb:

genjamon

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #54 on: 28 Dec 2015, 01:10 am »
Yeah, thanks for taking the time to walk through my questions, Jonathon!  Amazing response there, and exactly what I was asking for.  I'm still just trying to fully understand the different approaches and their merits/weaknesses. 

As for my needs and preferences, as you can tell from my original post, I have a pretty dialed-in music-only 2-channel system here.  I'm not a bass-head at all, but am just looking for full and solid foundation to music in the deep bass department, with quality at the caliber of the rest of my system.  No, I don't need the bass to hit me in the chest with explosive power, but I want to be able to hear those deep bass fundamentals at a volume level that seems matched to the rest of the music being reproduced.  Highly resolving, solid bass, from 20hz or below all the way up into the midrange.  I already have that from the upper 30 hz range up into the midrange and am just looking for subwoofer with great integration with the main system.

And I listen to a wide range of music.  From acoustic music to full scale rock or techno.  Not a lot of classical.  Not a lot of country.  But some of each.  Jazz and blues are going to be where my system really shines at the moment, but I like to rock out to some Ween, Wilco, Weezer, indie rock, or whathaveyou on a somewhat regular basis.  And Rage Against the Machine needs to sound fullsome and fearsome, while Jazz at the Pawnshop needs to sound refined, nuanced, and fully alive. 

Regarding some of the compromises you mentioned, the issues of filling out the size of a room are definitely valid and valuable input.  I'm preparing to put in an offer on a house that would have a much larger space to fill - 20ft X 25ft with sloped cathedral ceiling.  While I will listen regularly in the "captain's chair", I also will regularly be listening from in the kitchen making dinner, or reading/working at the dining room table. 

Anyway, thanks for actually responding to my questions about compromises of OB design in a very balanced and helpful way. 

bdp24

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Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #55 on: 28 Dec 2015, 01:10 am »
I'll say! And in a very articulate manner, displaying a great command of grammar and vocabulary, as well as syntax. Shucks, I'll bet Jonathan finished high school ;-)!

Early B.

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #56 on: 28 Dec 2015, 01:29 am »
You guys are over thinking this issue. Let's simplify it -- buy the best sounding sub you can afford. Like many have already said, you're not gonna find a better sounding sub for 2-channel listening than the OB servo. If you can buy them, then do so.   

   

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #57 on: 28 Dec 2015, 01:54 am »
Okay.  I just read through your system listing.  Lou's BOWs would obviously be a good match to your speakers (as a pair, of course), but I would refer questions on those to Lou and his circle, respectfully. 

Considering your thoughts in your last post and the proposed up and coming great room, if you did want to try out the OB servo subs, I would suggest following Danny's earlier advice and also pick up a sealed sub or two along with them for the big room, to run out of phase on the back wall.  For me, with a really well put together quality system like yours, I would feel the OB subs run by themselves lacking just a bit if my intention was to use them exclusively as a foundation for the music.  Working together (OB and boxed), is a combination that is very, very hard to beat and puts to shame a lot of systems nearly up in to the low midrange. . . Trouble is, you've got one of the few speakers I wouldn't hesitate to put in that conversation, coming down to splitting hairs of personal preference.

If you are really intending to cross them over below 30Hz, you might be just as well with only a pair of sealed subs.  If you wanted to cross them higher up and take some of that load off your mains (more into the midbass), I would definitely give the OBs a good look.  If you do, keep in mind a good chunk of that range is where the magic is in Lou's custom 8" driver in your mains.  I won't pick the argument as to which is better or worse, but from my experience hearing both, there will be a noticeable change in character.

Enviable position and best of luck deciding.  Because Danny's stuff is consistently crazy good for the money, maybe an inexpensive first step to experiment would be picking up a complete GR driver sealed sub from Rythmik to see how you like it.  I'd wager it pretty easy to sell if it doesn't do it for you, and if you like it enough to go in on more and or go OB, it can always be repurposed to run as part of a total solution later in the big room.

mlundy57

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Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #58 on: 28 Dec 2015, 02:39 am »
Okay.  I just read through your system listing.  Lou's BOWs would obviously be a good match to your speakers (as a pair, of course), but I would refer questions on those to Lou and his circle, respectfully. 

Considering your thoughts in your last post and the proposed up and coming great room, if you did want to try out the OB servo subs, I would suggest following Danny's earlier advice and also pick up a sealed sub or two along with them for the big room, to run out of phase on the back wall.  For me, with a really well put together quality system like yours, I would feel the OB subs run by themselves lacking just a bit if my intention was to use them exclusively as a foundation for the music.  Working together (OB and boxed), is a combination that is very, very hard to beat and puts to shame a lot of systems nearly up in to the low midrange. . . Trouble is, you've got one of the few speakers I wouldn't hesitate to put in that conversation, coming down to splitting hairs of personal preference.

If you are really intending to cross them over below 30Hz, you might be just as well with only a pair of sealed subs.  If you wanted to cross them higher up and take some of that load off your mains (more into the midbass), I would definitely give the OBs a good look.  If you do, keep in mind a good chunk of that range is where the magic is in Lou's custom 8" driver in your mains.  I won't pick the argument as to which is better or worse, but from my experience hearing both, there will be a noticeable change in character.

Enviable position and best of luck deciding.  Because Danny's stuff is consistently crazy good for the money, maybe an inexpensive first step to experiment would be picking up a complete GR driver sealed sub from Rythmik to see how you like it.  I'd wager it pretty easy to sell if it doesn't do it for you, and if you like it enough to go in on more and or go OB, it can always be repurposed to run as part of a total solution later in the big room.

+1

My living room is almost the same as you are looking at, 20' x 25' x 14' sloping in one half and 8' flat for the other half. This room is normally primarily for HT and has a GR/Rythmik sealed 12" servo sub paired with a pair of GR Research N3TL's. While this sub provides plenty of couch shaking, wall rattling, chest thumping performance for movies, it is also the most musical sealed sub I have run across.

Upstairs, which is primarily for 2 channel music,  I have a GR/Rythmik OB setup (GR Wedgies with GR/Rythmik 12" OB subs). At 10' x 12' x 8' this room is much smaller but the 12" OB subs do not overpower it. Occasionally I move this setup down to the larger living room where it performs even better than in the smaller room. There is no issue about not having enough bass.

So as Jonathon suggested, you could start with  a 12" sealed servo sub. You can go either the DIY route or if you prefer a turnkey solution a Rythmik F12G (F12 with the faster GR Research driver). This may satisfy you. If not, then you could add the OB subs and keep the sealed sub running out of phase in the back of the room like Danny suggested.

Since I have both types of 12" GR Research subs, sealed and OB, which do I prefer? Well, the upstairs system is in my man cave where I listen to music and watch movies my wife doesn't care for (which is most movies I like) and there you will find the OB's.

The best thing would be if you could listen to both.  To be fair, OB is not to everybody's taste but once I heard them, I knew that was the sound I wanted. If you are near Tulsa, give me a holler. You're more than welcome to listen to mine.

mikeeastman

Re: Rythmik DIY subs vs MFW15 Turbo - feedback?
« Reply #59 on: 28 Dec 2015, 03:51 am »
I live a little closer, just out side of Flagstaff. I have the best of both with 2-12' servo in a H frame OB in my Super 7s and a sealed 12'' servo  that covers 70hz down. Stop by if your in the area, but someone should warn you the these subs are addicting.  :o