Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase

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adol290

Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« on: 13 Dec 2015, 09:16 pm »
Hi James,

I have had my Model T Signatures and TC-1 for almost 3 months now. I have been meaning to
 give you my impressions, but the signatures just didn't sound quite right on a dedicated
 2 channel system. The imaging seemed off, the voices were centered, but other instruments
 seemed to be not quite in the right places all the time. In some songs if i moved my head
 6 inches to the left the image would shift. It was less noticeable when i ran the speakers
 in my surround sound system.

Last week i got to try a new surround sound processor. It said that all the bryston speakers
 were out of phase, but my surround speakers(non bryston) were in phase. I checked the wires and
 everything was wired correctly. Then i started to think, is it possible that one of the internal
 wires were hooked up wrong. I found it hard to believe because you must check each speaker
 before shipping, plus all 3 speakers, no way.

Well, today with alan wrench in hand, i first unscrewed the binding post holders on the left Model T Signature
 to see how they were wired. This is what i found.


Speaker         Binding post     Wire clip     Color


Tweeter          Negative         larger       white
                       Positive           small        blue


Mid Range        Negative         larger       green
                        Positive           small        yellow

Woofers          Negative         larger       black
                       Positive           small        red


So then i did the unthinkable and started to remove the drivers on the left Model T Signature.
Here is how the wires are clipped onto each driver.       



Speaker         Binding post     Wire clip     Color


Tweeter          Negative         larger       white       Note that this also matches with the board behind + and -
                       Positive           small        blue         Note that this also matches with the board behind + and -


Mid Range        Negative         larger       yellow      OOPS
                        Positive           small        green       OOPS

Woofers          Negative         larger       black
                        Positive          small        red 



The problem is with the mid range, the wires are reversed. Not only the color, but the clip size. I can't reverse the wires on the
 driver because the small clip wouldn't fit on the larger post.


I then checked the right speaker and it is the same.

I then reversed My speaker wires at the binding post for the mid range on the Left and
 Right Model T Signature. I reran the speaker check on the surround processor and it now reported
 that both speakers were in phase.

I then listened to a cd in dedicated 2 channel system(note this is not through the surround processor), and
 sure enough the imaging changed dramatically. I could move my head back and forth with no
 image shift. Instruments were in there right places. It sounded so much better.

I still have to look at the TC-1, but it may be harder to fix. I assume the upper binding post
 has the Mid and Tweeter wires attached, changing My speaker wires at the binding post may fix the mid but
 put the tweeter out of phase. So i would have to flip the clips on the mid range driver itself.
 But that would not work because the small clip would not fit on the larger speaker post.
 Not sure how to fix this one.
 
James i don't like to jump to conclusions but,  this could indicate a bigger problem, if you know what i mean.
 But just my Guessing.   

BTW i have pictures if you want them.

scirica

Re: Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« Reply #1 on: 13 Dec 2015, 10:21 pm »
Interested to hear more on this. I am convinced my Model T's are phased correctly, but not as confident in the center channel.

James Tanner

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Re: Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« Reply #2 on: 14 Dec 2015, 12:02 am »
Hi James,

I have had my Model T Signatures and TC-1 for almost 3 months now. I have been meaning to
 give you my impressions, but the signatures just didn't sound quite right on a dedicated
 2 channel system. The imaging seemed off, the voices were centered, but other instruments
 seemed to be not quite in the right places all the time. In some songs if i moved my head
 6 inches to the left the image would shift. It was less noticeable when i ran the speakers
 in my surround sound system.

Last week i got to try a new surround sound processor. It said that all the bryston speakers
 were out of phase, but my surround speakers(non bryston) were in phase. I checked the wires and
 everything was wired correctly. Then i started to think, is it possible that one of the internal
 wires were hooked up wrong. I found it hard to believe because you must check each speaker
 before shipping, plus all 3 speakers, no way.

Well, today with alan wrench in hand, i first unscrewed the binding post holders on the left Model T Signature
 to see how they were wired. This is what i found.


Speaker         Binding post     Wire clip     Color


Tweeter          Negative         larger       white
                       Positive           small        blue


Mid Range        Negative         larger       green
                        Positive           small        yellow

Woofers          Negative         larger       black
                       Positive           small        red


So then i did the unthinkable and started to remove the drivers on the left Model T Signature.
Here is how the wires are clipped onto each driver.       



Speaker         Binding post     Wire clip     Color


Tweeter          Negative         larger       white       Note that this also matches with the board behind + and -
                       Positive           small        blue         Note that this also matches with the board behind + and -


Mid Range        Negative         larger       yellow      OOPS
                        Positive           small        green       OOPS

Woofers          Negative         larger       black
                        Positive          small        red 



The problem is with the mid range, the wires are reversed. Not only the color, but the clip size. I can't reverse the wires on the
 driver because the small clip wouldn't fit on the larger post.


I then checked the right speaker and it is the same.

I then reversed My speaker wires at the binding post for the mid range on the Left and
 Right Model T Signature. I reran the speaker check on the surround processor and it now reported
 that both speakers were in phase.

I then listened to a cd in dedicated 2 channel system(note this is not through the surround processor), and
 sure enough the imaging changed dramatically. I could move my head back and forth with no
 image shift. Instruments were in there right places. It sounded so much better.

I still have to look at the TC-1, but it may be harder to fix. I assume the upper binding post
 has the Mid and Tweeter wires attached, changing My speaker wires at the binding post may fix the mid but
 put the tweeter out of phase. So i would have to flip the clips on the mid range driver itself.
 But that would not work because the small clip would not fit on the larger speaker post.
 Not sure how to fix this one.
 
James i don't like to jump to conclusions but,  this could indicate a bigger problem, if you know what i mean.
 But just my Guessing.   

BTW i have pictures if you want them.

Hi

Yes please send me pictures and I will look into it - all the speakers are checked at the factory so I am at a loss to understand what happened. The clips are made that way to ensure they do not get hooked up improperly.  Remember the inputs can be wired differently than the drivers in terms of colour depending on what phase occurs through the crossover. There is a difference between Electrical Phase and Acoustic Phase.

When you say 'out of phase' do you mean out of phase relative to the surrounds?  Also it would be highly unlikely for both the left and right speaker to have a similar issue.  I will get the wiring diagram and check but I am thinking the surround processor is just checking at a particular frequency and indicating the T's are reversing the Absolute phase relative to the surrounds.  What are your surround speakers?

Also please send me the serial numbers so I can figure out when they were built.

jamestanner@bryston.com

james


« Last Edit: 14 Dec 2015, 02:28 am by James Tanner »

adol290

Re: Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« Reply #3 on: 14 Dec 2015, 02:34 am »

Hi James,

I sent the pictures with explanation, to jamestanner@bryston.com

James Tanner

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Re: Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« Reply #4 on: 14 Dec 2015, 03:17 am »
Hi James,

I sent the pictures with explanation, to jamestanner@bryston.com

Thanks - got them - will compare them to factory wiring.

james

James Tanner

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Re: Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« Reply #5 on: 14 Dec 2015, 03:50 pm »
Hi Alan - from Model T engineer.

Hi James,

OK, mystery solved. The heat-shrink colour coding on the short wires that connect the midranges to the mid boxes on all T series products have been assembled with the colour coding reversed as they are used in other versions of the speakers besides the Model T Signatures.

This will make it look like there is phase issue, but electrically the wiring itself and the terminals are correct, so there is no issue with the wiring, just an issue with the colour marking. I suspect the issue Alan is having with his system is that the set-up algorithm is only measuring within the midrange frequency band and is detecting that as electrically out of phase, which it is. The same goes for the TC1.

All in all it looks as though everything is correct and he should ignore the polarity warning from his processor.

Thanks,
Andrew

adol290

Re: Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« Reply #6 on: 14 Dec 2015, 05:34 pm »
Thanks James,

Andrew told me that if I am still concerned that you will fly out here and do a polarity test.  JUST JOKING.

He did tell me, for my piece of mind,  how to do a simple polarity test with a nine volt battery.

I will do that tonight.

James Tanner

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Re: Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« Reply #7 on: 14 Dec 2015, 06:07 pm »
Thanks James,

Andrew told me that if I am still concerned that you will fly out here and do a polarity test.  JUST JOKING.

He did tell me, for my piece of mind,  how to do a simple polarity test with a nine volt battery.

I will do that tonight.

OK great - also got this to help set your mind at ease.

Hi James ,

Bryston Speaker Q.C.

There is no way for anything to be out of phase when it is built and leaves the factory. All the woofers and tweeters are checked for phase with a Listen Inc Connect when they are manufactured.  The crossovers are all tested with LMS when they are built.  The entire speaker is tested again for phase when it is built.  The phase of the entire speaker at the input using a battery and a phase tester.  The phase of each of the parts relative to each other is tested using an amplitude response sweep of every finished product. 

It can be confusing because not all parts are wired in electrical phase to achieve acoustical phase.  This is true of virtually all three-way systems on the market in that the mid normally must we electrically out of phase for the system to be acoustically in phase. 

We know both how vital the phase thing is and how easy it can be to get it wrong.  This is why we have the different sized connectors on all the parts (8” woofers excepted) and why we test for it so many times along the way in manufacturing.   

Hope this helps.

Thanks
Ian


The easiest way to understand the wiring is as long as the smaller connector is on the small lug and the larger connector is on the larger lug all is correct. :thumb:

james
« Last Edit: 14 Dec 2015, 07:11 pm by James Tanner »

adol290

Re: Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« Reply #8 on: 15 Dec 2015, 03:30 pm »
Hi James,

Talked to Andrew this morning.

The battery test confirms that everything is in phase.

Should have done a Google search and saved everyone a bunch of time, but got a little to curious.

Andrew said he had a similar problem with image shift at his place, and suggested a few different ways to position the speakers.
 He was able to resolve his issue by repositioning and moving items around in the room. I will give that a try.

James Tanner

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  • The Demo is Everything!
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Re: Model T Signature and TC-1 Out of Phase
« Reply #9 on: 15 Dec 2015, 03:56 pm »
Hi James,

Talked to Andrew this morning.

The battery test confirms that everything is in phase.

Should have done a Google search and saved everyone a bunch of time, but got a little to curious.

Andrew said he had a similar problem with image shift at his place, and suggested a few different ways to position the speakers.
 He was able to resolve his issue by repositioning and moving items around in the room. I will give that a try.

OK - great news - I learned some stuff as well so alls good  :thumb:

james