[jackman]

Personally I just think it was Danny trying to instigate more problems. His and Brian's rivalry go back further than audiocircle. Others just played into it.

We're not going to get anywhere with this argument, but I don't think Danny had any influence overwhelming majority who preferred the modded version.  It looks like people who didn't like the outcome are trying to distract from the fact that the modded speakers sounded better to a majority of experienced audiophiles and the comments many people made regarding the original design were consistent with Danny's original statements.  

Lastly, where are the "correct" measurements that Brain promised?  I'd be particularly interested in off-axis measurements.

[Tyson]

It looks like people who didn't like the outcome

What people are you referring to?  If you are going to accuse me of bias and favoritism then at least have the class to come out and be specific.  Don't insinuate some kind of conspiracy on the part of some amorphous "people".  It was my decision and I stand by it for the reasons stated.  Any other speculation of motives is specious and I would expect better from you.

[rosconey]

LOOKS LIKE IT'S TIME TO LOCK THIS ONE ALSO


opinions are like assholes everyone has one-
all it takes is to have a little respect for others opinions, you dont have to agree just respect.


and it was very obvious the above mentioned  tread should have been closed once the owners started the SHIT TALK-nothing more should be read into it  

btw there is no wrong or right side as far as the guy getting the mods-its his stuff he can do whatever the hell he wants with it.

[jackman]

What people are you referring to? If you are going to accuse me of bias and favoritism then at least have the class to come out and be specific. Don't insinuate some kind of conspiracy on the part of some amorphous "people". It was my decision and I stand by it for the reasons stated. Any other speculation of motives is specious and I would expect better from you.

Yikes, that's not even close to what I meant.  I don't question the decision to lock the thread.  It would have degenerated into something unproductive.  My comments were directed towards the people who tried the imply the test was not valid in any way because of methodology or because the speakers in question were not set up properly.  It had nothing to do with the locking of the thread.  If I was in your shoes, I would have also locked it for the same reasons you did.  

Relax.  I have never know you as anything but an honest guy and I think you have made an excellent contribution to this site.  Same with Marbles.  I'm sincerely sorry if my comments indicated otherwise.  It was not my intention because it's just not true.  

Thanks!

Jack

PS - You aren't amourphous!  At least I have never seen you breathe under water!

[Tyson]

Cool, thanks for the clarification.  Since I've already flow off the handle once I'll refrain from further comment  

[rosconey]

flow off the handle  maybe flown

yo powers that be-- we want no kneed a spell check

[Mad DOg]

...My comments were directed towards the people who tried the imply the test was not valid in any way because of methodology or because the speakers in question were not set up properly...

first off, i want to make it clear that i am neither fan of VMPS or GR speakers before i offer my $0.02...

i didn't think that there was anything improper w/ the methodology or setup; it was what it was. they arrived at their opinions based on the sound they heard in the specific room with the speakers set up the way that was described. just becuz folks might have preferred one speaker in one room and one setup does not guarantee that the same will hold true in another room and another setup. and this is exactly what makes this hobby so facinating...

[Rick Craig]

first off, i want to make it clear that i am neither fan of VMPS or GR speakers before i offer my $0.02...

i didn't think that there was anything improper w/ the methodology or setup; it was what it was. they arrived at their opinions based on the sound they heard in the specific room with the speakers set up the way that was described. just becuz folks might have preferred one speaker in one room and one setup does not guarantee that the same will hold true in another room and another setup. and this is exactly what makes this hobby so facinating...

Without being in the central listening position I think it's pretty hard to make a valid comparison of two different speakers. A large room like that will also have a negative effect on a neutral speaker of that size and a positive impact on one that would usually be too forward / bright in a normal size room.

[jackman]

didn't think that there was anything improper w/ the methodology or setup; it was what it was. they arrived at their opinions based on the sound they heard in the specific room with the speakers set up the way that was described. just becuz folks might have preferred one speaker in one room and one setup does not guarantee that the same will hold true in another room and another setup. and this is exactly what makes this hobby so facinating...

...so how do you suggesting evaluating speakers in the future?  I agree with your comments.  I have heard speakers in one room sound completely different in another.  Also, I have heard speakers (mine!) sound very bad with certain electronics.  If someone tries new speakers and finds them preferrable to their current ones, how can they be sure the difference isn't room related?  

It all boils down to: how do you conduct a valid test or evaluation?  Is it possible to account for all or at least the majority of the variables before determining that one component is better sounding (to you) than another?  Let's assume they take the normal precautions like proper positioning, room treatments, and different combinations of up and downstream components.  How can you be sure something isn't causing a good component to sound bad because of proper setup or other issues?  Again, when is a test valid?  

It seems we are all (me too!) quick to agree with results as long as they don't conflict with our preconceived notions.  If someone posts something about their new CDP or Dac which just received $2K in mods sounding better than the stock version, no one seems to argue or ask about methodology or synergy.  Even worse, most modded gear reviews rarely employ a blind A/B comparison or even a direct comparison to the stock unit.  I have read countless reviews of people comparing modded gear to unmodded gear based on memory.  I can't even remember what I ate for breakfast let alone performance improvements that are usually subtle.  

Lastly, why do we (me included) care about these things?  I can't explain it but somehow it's important.  Why?

J

[Mad DOg]

...Again, when is a test valid?...

the most important test is the one that occurs in your own room w/ your own gear which allows one to develop their own opinion...and that's the only one that really matters to me which is why i really like auditioning gear in my home...until you move to another house and have to deal with a brand new room again...

[Mad DOg]

...so how do you suggesting evaluating speakers in the future?...

my suggestion? evaluate speakers in your own home... but we all know this already...

[MaxCast]

so how do you suggesting evaluating speakers in the future?  I agree with your comments.  I have heard speakers in one room sound completely different in another.  Also, I have heard speakers (mine!) sound very bad with certain electronics.  If someone tries new speakers and finds them preferrable to their current ones, how can they be sure the difference isn't room related?  

It all boils down to: how do you conduct a valid test or evaluation?  Is it possible to account for all or at least the majori ...

If we don't talk about equipment and how it sounds we wouldn't need these addicting audio boards now would we
 

[John Casler]

You know...In the scheme of things, what is this "furor" all about?

I have watched two very talented "designers" disagree, then snipe and swipe at each other.  Then the various supporters and detractors join in and you have nothing but egos exploding, hurt feelings, accusations, arguments and puffery.

While I am a dealer for one brand, I have been very reserved in specific comment since I don't feel it nessessary, or beneficial to any purpose.

I will not even further "assess" specific methodology, since that will certainly be construed as bias.

There is, nor will there "ever" be a definitive "this is the best or better of any speaker" argument resolution, since the results are purely subjective.

I don't have a problem with any speaker "face off" or "shoot out" and anyone can gleen whatever they feel is valuable from such.

I have learned one thing however.

NO ONE ELSE LISTENS WITH "YOUR" EARS!!!

And just as important, no one can tell you what you hear or should be hearing.  Pointers, tips, experiences, evaluations, and the like are only incomplete communications of the experience of others in similar but not the same situations.

There are a lot of things that puzzle me about the whole thing due to my experience with the 626R model and even the very pair of "pre-modded" 626R's themselves, but even asking the questions only leads to negative feelings and provides no value.

The VMPS 626R is a stellar speaker.  I think it is one of the greatest stand mount speakers one can have and it is my current speaker.

I have no doubt that the modded speaker will equally please some listeners depending on their preferences, rooms, systems, and listening habits.

I am not worried that the speaker need to be "defended" or supported by me, Brian, or any of the hundreds of owners who enjoy their speakers.

Just the other day I heard a speaker pair that cost $14,000, with over $25,000 worth of cables, and I think $40K in electronics!!!!!

I was exactly in the prescribed sweet spot, and listened to over 10 cuts, 3 of which are amoung my "reference cuts" and I am very familiar with.

Long story short, I went directly home afterwards, fired up my system, and ran the same cuts.

Unbeleivable difference in detail and imaging.  I mean so much was missing in the big rig.  My system, to my ears, absolutely blew the "megasystem" away.

SO WHAT!!!

That is my system with my ears adjusted to me, and the way I listen.  Only hours before a friend of mine heard a cut on my system and thought it a little "edgy".

WHAT.... two people can listen to the "SAME" system and have differing opinions??  or perceptions??

What is the goal of sniping, swiping, and being derogatory about a company, the audio philosophy, or marketing methods of any company?

Who cares?

Saying something bad about a competitor or a speaker or component you don't own, or like, has no value except to impose your values on others.

Even if you have "heard" a component, there is no guarantee that you heard it at its best or even close.

Even if you heard it in the same system!!!  I know all of you have sat in front of your system and said man this is really sounding great "right now", I wish ________ could hear it now.

So I would say, to all the followers and detractors, why not get above this, and let the client and consumers enjoy their wares.

This is freaking Audio for Chriminy's Sake.

It is supposed to be enjoyed and not "adhered to" like a religion.

Taste tests, and listening panels mean "beans".  Opinions (including mine) are all stinky (you know the rote)

One man's "thin sounding" is another mans "blackness" or "light and airy"

Just be thankful that we can all get together and dig our hobby in many different ways.

Just because someone doesn't like your speaker won't make your private parts shrink  Just as someone liking them won't make them grow

Your system is like a fingerprint.  Very seldom will you find two exactly alike. (or even close when you factor in room effects and hearing ability)

Most who know me personally, know that I like to listen to all kinds of speakers and components.  Just cause I prefer mine, doesn't mean I don't like hearing all the rest.

[jackman]

John, great post.  Your comments are dead-on.  I'll do my best to follow your example.  This is supposed to be a fun hobby and arguments are anything but fun.  I'll leave the arguments to the Sports circle where they can't be avoided.

Jack

[Eric]

Tyson,

I fully support and agree with your decision to lock the thread.

[F-100]

Very well put, John !!! After reading your post, I have to say this has been a real learning experience for me.

Thank you.

[Mad DOg]

John,

You've hit the nail right on the head with your post!...

[Robert C. Schult]

Okay, so I didn't say which "this evening" I wanted to post further to this. ( poor out, I know.)

Yes, what John said. Anybody listening? Or do petty offenses keep you from it. The obvious would not be so profound if some folks would just think.

And, as usual this thread has turned into a whole other thing though less inflammatory and the value has popped up to be different than what may have been expected. Kudos to mainly John.

I noticed earlier this afternoon this thread got locked: A Thread That Is Locked.

What a shame as it could have been handled much differently and in a more appropriate manner. Or, it could have just been left alone and the true colors of people posting or in debate (if that's what they felt they had to do) would have become more evident. Hmm, come to think of it, that the thread was locked surely reveals something(s). Guess kids w ...

I'm willing to be wrong here but it seems to me that first, I personally wished Danny would have simply posted a link to maybe his own circle with the same info he posted on Eric's review.  Especially given the eruptions that seem to pop up between Danny and Brian regardless of who thinks who is instigating what.  Seems it would be good if somebody, Danny or Brian, would have some foresight (which isn't too difficult) and take the high road to avoid destroying the intent of a thread...in this case, Eric's review.

Whatever Danny did to the 626, he deprived its owner of all factory service in or out of warranty. Since the parts are custom, if anything ever goes wrong Danny will be unable to fix it. High price for what is essentially a sideways move..

Brian, Nice spin and scare tactic.  

Quote:
Whatever Danny did to the 626, he deprived its owner of all factory service in or out of warranty. Since the parts are custom, if anything ever goes wrong Danny will be unable to fix it. High price for what is essentially a sideways move.

Speaking of measurements, I think Brian publicly stated on the MAD board that he was going to also post measurements of this speaker. Have I missed something? I have yet to see them. It will be interesting to see if his off axis vertical and horizontal measurements match my own wouldn't it?

Snipes...No? Or could the same thing(s) had been said differently, more diplomatic regardless of an assumed response, or...maturely? Come on kids!

As for my "scare" tactics, no manufacturer will allow a user to modify a product in the extreme manner Danny has done and be willing to repair it in or out of warranty. Of course, Danny cares little or nothing for his customer's welfare--this "mod" is an exercise in displaying his large ego and small soul, for all the world to see. It is a contemptuous example of the lengths an unprincipled person will go to merely for self-gratification.

Brian, one of the things I admire much about you is you're over the edge. One of the things I least, no, I simply find distasteful about you is you're over the edge. I don't believe unbiased folk are stupid and I bet they saw right through this. A warranty from VMPS was never an issue and would not be an issue for anyone wanting this mod done. And if it did need some type of repair in the future for whatever reason, you make it sound like the speaker can only be thrown away! Come on! Money and parts or a warranty from GR could fix it and I bet the owner would already have considered that in his decision to have the speaker mod'ed. My own perception is that this was only a spring board for a childish and hurtful attack. Maybe you honestly didn't or don't see it this way but if that's the case, I believe you should have with, again, a little foresight. If there was any validity to your concern and if concern was all it honestly was, you could have said that way different. Further, if Danny is who you accuse him to be, it's just plain fact that such an undividual could not have a successfull small business and have a high and growing reputation among it's clientel...kind of like you! Who chipped your shoulder when you were a kid? Do your accusations say more about you than who you accuse? Probably not but...come on!

Regardless, what is it, 20, 30 years of sweat and passion to bring folks a good taste of hi fidelity affordably?
For that sir, you're a Giant. Thank you!

Seems a bit sad to me that if you peal back the layers of where loudspeaker performance is today, you'll find Brian and VMPS and that's helped produce new growth where other talented designers like Danny Richey and GR Research can also flourish and contribute positively. The Epiphany loudspeakers are definitely not a "Jonny come lately" effort. Yet it seems all this tit for tat stuff is doing is hurting each of you by turning "outsiders" off to wanting to experience your craft. It seems neither GR or VMPS should feel threatened by the other...really.



 

Or, it could have just been left alone and the true colors of people posting or in debate (if that's what they felt they had to do) would have become more evident.

I think we've had enough true colors from that particular discussion for the next few years  

After some thought, yep, enough color for me too! Not sure I've ever seen brighter blacks!

OK, I can see where this is heading. I think everyone has made their points, and given the history here, the thread has been locked.

After some more thought, I think I agree: "I think everyone has made their points" i.e. Danny and Brian. But it seems that not everyone was done discussing and I bet there were more folks that would have like to participate in a sane thread that was really quit good I think. Could the thread have been salvaged to a 100% by moving the offending dialogue to the review to a more appropriate circle like the Brian and Danny Circle instead of locking it? You're a VMPS owner and while I choose to think otherwise, locking the thread may taint your credibility as unbiased when it comes to matters or dialogue in the circle you moderate that feature the Brian and Danny show.

Enough of my profoundity!  

[Brian Cheney]

I'll be brief:

No parts or service in or out of warranty for modded speakers. None.
You'd have to be nuts to let Danny mod your VMPS, and he has no (as in none) access to the all-custom parts.

When I drag-race modified my Grand Caravan, I was shocked to discover the local dealer wouldn't even change the oil for me.

Ask any professional modder what happens to the factory warranty when he changes things inside gear.

[Robert C. Schult]

What the hell just happened!? I missed it.

That would be a good "Announcement" or "Sticky" on the VMPS Circle but I don't get it's relevance here. Only more weird behavior. My perception.