[Robert C. Schult]

I noticed earlier this afternoon this thread got locked: A Thread That Is Locked.

What a shame as it could have been handled much differently and in a more appropriate manner. Or, it could have just been left alone and the true colors of people posting or in debate (if that's what they felt they had to do) would have become more evident. Hmm, come to think of it, that the thread was locked surley reveals something(s). Guess kids will be kids.

As I have no stakes in one camp or another, I would like to, and will, post more a bit later this evening.

Till then...
Cheers

[zybar]

I noticed earlier this afternoon this thread got locked: A Thread That Is Locked.

What a shame as it could have been handled much differently and in a more appropriate manner. Or, it could have just been left alone and the true colors of people posting or in debate (if that's what they felt they had to do) would have become more evident. Hmm, come to think of it, that the thread was locked surley reveals something(s). Guess kids w ...

Well said.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

George

[Marbles]

From the FAQ

"Anything I can't do?
We prefer not to impose complicated rules on your use of the site, believing that common sense and respect for others goes much further. There is however one rule that must be stated so it is clear from the get-go: a manufacturer must not make negative comments about other manufacturers present on this site, or about their products. We are sorry but this just causes way too many difficulties. This rule is quite strict and breaking is may result in your circle being shut down."

While I feel partly responsible for the thread in question, I would hate to see either or both of the manufacturers lose their circles over that thread.

I for one am glad it got locked.

Now if you wanted to start an abstract thread on some of the theories that the thread revealed, then I think that would be OK, as long as you keep the manufacturers names and products out of it.

[tkp]

I am with Rob on this one.  

The thread started out with great potential on what people thought of the modded speaker versus the stock one and whether or not the cost of the mod is justify.  Before long, people started to deviate from the real purpose of the thread and started to stir up thing should have been left alone.  Once the audio manufacturers got involved, I don't see any reason for not locking the thread because from that point on, there will be more harm than good can come out of the discussion.

[warnerwh]

John Casler started a thread on being treated room audio snob.  There's really no arguement here.  The same speakers in different rooms will sound different, probably much different. The room plays a huge roll in adding it's sonic signature. Unless a comparison test is done in a very good acoustical environment then all bets are off. I'm sure the more knowledgeable people will know what I'm saying.  John's point was excellent and cannot be argued logically.  The room has to be nonlinear if it's got walls.  A speaker that has a poor frequency response may be complimented in one room and made worse in another. By the same token a perfectly flat speaker could sound atrocious depending on the room.  So comparing speakers (especially speakers) in anything other than a well designed room is not meaningless but sure doesn't carry as much weight either.  Just like these magazine reviewers only auditioning one pair of speakers in THEIR room, what does that mean?  Hell, move the speaker a few inches and a thing speaker could sound overly ripe.  You guys can discuss it til the cows start coming home and get nowhere.    Just my two cents here...

[ctviggen]

As soon as the first post hit, I thought that it would be locked.  I was interested to see how they tested, because I've had a hard time testing things myself.  For instance, I did a comparison between using the D/A in my Pioneer Elite DVD player and the D/A converter in my Proceed AVP.  When I had to get up and hit the buttons on the AVP to change between the PE and the AVP, I had an extremely hard time telling the difference between the two.  It wasn't until I programmed my remote to change between the two that I was able to tell a difference, and that was after many minutes of listening.  Similarly, I compared a ShegYa CDP with my PE DVD player as transport and my Proceed AVP as D/A.  During this process, I burnt some CDs.  I made a copy of a CD and put the original in one player and the copy in another player.  When I switched back and forth between the two, the copy was much, much lower in volume.  This totally negated the test, as by the time I got the music from the copy to the same DB as the music from the original, I couldn't remember the sound of the original.  So, I burnt two copies of the same CD and compared copies.

Anyway, I think that this kind of stuff is what makes these tests hard -- if you don't set up the test correctly, the results are suspect.

This is especially true with VMPS speakers -- because they are adjustable, you can adjust them "bright" so that some people might not like the sound, too "warm" so that now the people who didn't like them bright might like them but people who like bright speakers wouldn't like them.  You have three things to adjust -- highs, mids, and bass damping, and any of those can change the sound.  This is what attracted to me VMPS speakers -- I can adjust the sound to my tastes.  I had the speakers originally pretty "hot" (both treble and mids turned up), and now I've dialed back both but made the treble be slightly hotter than the mids.  I've also experimented with placement, and the placement does affect the sound to a large degree (much larger than the pots, in my opinion).  The bass damping also affects the sound.  So, you really have to adjust these speakers to the listeners, if that's possible.  

On the other hand, I've sat in a room while listening to multiple speakers, and some of the speakers were just bad to my ears.  For instance, B&Ws have always sounded way, way too bright to me.  On the other hand, I've always liked Wilsons and Thiels.  So, while I think the room is important, I also think that some speakers are just better than others, regardless of the room.

[MaxCast]

I thought the thread was very interesting and informative...then the mfgs got involved.  I don't believe the issue is dead as I think things will be learned from it.

[audiojerry]

OK, I can see where this is heading. I think everyone has made their points, and given the history here, the thread has been locked. If anyone feels they have something pertinent to say, PM me.

Tough decision, but a good one, even though it makes for very entertaining reading and increased reader interest. Where else can you go to get such active participation from the mfgr community?

I would recommend creating another circle for mfgr debate where a mfgr chooses freely to participate or not. There would need to be specific rules of engagement where both parties agree to participate where one issues a challenge and the other accepts.

[jackman]

I for one thought it was one of the most entertaining threads in a long time.  It touched on one of the most important aspects of this hobby, gear evaluation.  

Eric, a very experienced audiophile, lived with the unmodded speakers for three weeks.  He's no neophite and I'm sure he spent a lot of time setting them up to try to get the most out of their sound and he still preferred the modded version...from the nature of his comments, by a long margin.  Eleven people evaluated the speakers in a test that seemed to be more fair and objective than 99% of the tests I have attended and seven of the people preferred the modded version.  These seven also happened to be the most experienced audiophiles in the group.  All of their opinions seemed to be discounted by the VMPS "defenders" because the room wasn't treated or their ears were "old" (okay the last one may have been a bit of a joke) or the speakers weren't "tuned" properly, etc.  A manufacturer entered the fray and tried to use scare tactics regarding warrantees, etc.  I guess it's impossible to do a comparison of VMPS speakers without owning them for a long time, having an expert come over to your house to set them up and spending a good chunk of change on room treatments.  These sound like very convenient excuses because 7/11 (or 8/12 if you include Eric) preferred the modded version.  

In addition, the modded version seemed to correct some of the poor dispersion characteristics of the original design and had much better bass.  For less than many people spend on a pair of IC's, the speakers were improved to the point that an overwhelming majority of listeners preferred them to the original design.  In my book, that's not a "sideways" improvement.  


Just my .10,

Jack

[zybar]

Lastly, I wonder if the thread would have been locked so quickly if the opposite had been true, if the original, unmodded design was the "winner". Or better yet, if the original design was the winner and the tweeter on the modded version blew up during the test. If that had occured, GR Research would have (and should have) taken some serious heat. I guarantee that I'd be one of the first to provide it in a thread that would probably still be unlocked.

Jack,

Since the thread started you seem to have an axe to grind with VMPS/Brian and have missed the whole point, what gives?  

Now you are questioning the actions of Marbles in terms of locking the thread....I think you are dead wrong and to me it further shows that you aren't neutral as you proclaim.  Marbles was very fair in his comments and made it clear that he was a VMPS owner.  Where do you see any evidence otherwise?

You (or anybody else) is obviously entitled to your opinion, but I think you have shown that you aren't as open and fair minded as you claim.

George

[JohnR]

Or, it could have just been left alone and the true colors of people posting or in debate (if that's what they felt they had to do) would have become more evident.

I think we've had enough true colors from that particular discussion for the next few years  

[jackman]

Jack,

Since the thread started you seem to have an axe to grind with VMPS/Brian and have missed the whole point, what gives?

Now you are questioning the actions of Marbles in terms of locking the thread....I think you are dead wrong and to me it further shows that you aren't neutral as you proclaim. Marbles was very fair in his comments and made it clear that he was a VMPS owner. Where do you see any evidence otherwise?

You (or anybody else) is obviously entitled to your opinion, but I think you have shown that you aren't as open and fair minded as you claim.

George

Like anyone else, you are entitled to your opinion.  I'm not going to turn this into a pi$$ing match by speculating as to whether your opinion is objective or not.  I just wonder what would have happened if the tables were turned and the unmodded speakers were preferred by the same overwhelming majority as the modded speakers were.  Or even better, if the modded design blew up as some predicted.  I wonder if people would have resisted the temptation of joining in the frey and maintained their "neutrality".  Actually, I don't wonder, I'm pretty sure people would have taken shots at GR for the destructive mods.  I would be first in line to take the first shot.  

Bottom line, many people evaluate gear and make decisions or at least form strong opinions using tests that are far less objective and well constructed as the one that was used at Hiderfest.  We all do.  Calling the results "sideways" is about as accurate as saying the tweeters will blow up in the modded version.  

I have no agenda (regardless of what you think) and wish both manufacturers the best of luck.  Distortion irks me in audio, but I find distortion of the thruth even more distasteful.

J

PS- I never questioned Marbles.  He's a good guy and someone I highly respect.  It just pisses me off when companies set up standards that don't allow people to make comparisons between their products and others (whether it's a 1000 hour warm up time that some amp manufacturers suggest, or the elaborate setup required by VMPS speakers).  Using that logic, any evaluation that doesn't include expert setup by the designer is invalid, regardless of the outcome.  I question that as a realistic and reasonable standard.  Again, just one guy's opinion.

[jermmd]

Don't you guys remember the original thread about modding this speaker? It was a farce.
 As soon as BC posted in this thread, it was obvious the thread would fall apart.  It's a shame but inevitable.  Dealers/manufacturers need to be barred from these discussions.  Even then, you don't know if someone posting has an ulterior motive.
  Also, the whole modification and derision of one manufacturerers product by another manufacturer who has previously fought with that manufacturer is distasteful.  It also makes good reading.  I would have liked to learn more about the improvements and impressions from those people who heard the speakers.

By the way, VMPS and GR Research, please stay out of this discussion.

Joe M.

[byteme]

Regardless of product, reputation, etc. I think this whole thing, right from the beginning gave both of them (VMPS & GR) a black eye, at least to me.  To open the whole thing up again blackens the other one.

On the bright side, it makes speaker choice easier since there are two less to choose from!

[rosconey]

byteme says-
On the bright side, it makes speaker choice easier since there are two less to choose from!





yup sure does

[jpsartre]

As phenomenal an audio designer BC is, he makes himself look like a grumpy old man arguing that *no one* can ever make *any* improvement on his designs. This is not an anti-BC statement, on the contrary, I am saying he has achieved so much in his career, he doesn't need be fighting tooth and nail for the last inch.

Besides, the changes in sound as described seem so marginal they can be taken as nothing but subjective opinions. 12 people are not a statistically sound sample. So, take the "shootout" at face value and accept the possibility that there just maybe another way to skin the cat!

[Tyson]

Marbles did not lock the thread, I did.

I don't give a flying flip about what sounded better.  When the manufacturers got involved with criticising each other, it broke the rules.  Ugly personal attacks compounded the nastiness.

It was my decision to make, not anyone else's, and I stand by it.  If you don't like it, then YOU volunteer to be a facilitator and then you can decide what to do about squabbling manufacturers.

Regardless, no amount of whining from the peanut gallery is going to change my decision, the thread it locked and it stays locked.  If you don't like it, take it up with Borg.

[jackman]

Tyson,
In hindsight, I don't argue with your decision to lock the thread.  The part that pissed me off most about the discussion was how quickly people were willing to discount the results of the shootout.  If a modder (pick one) had revised a pair of B*se speakers or a Sony CD player and 7/11 or 7/12 would have made the exact same comments regarding the end result (better, more articulate bass, better integration, etc.) I don't think it would have been a big deal.  Also, I don't think anyone would have questioned the results or the methodology.  Heck, most comparisons that I have read about on this and other sites are not blind A/B types like the one that was conducted on these speakers.  Also, if someone cares to read Eric's statements, I do not believe the differences described were "marginal".  There seemed to be a significant difference between the two speakers.  Also, most of the negative feedback on the unmodded version seem to be consistent with Danny's original comments.  

Anyway, since I do NOT wish to be a moderator now or anytime soon, I'm staying out of this from now on.  You guys do a great job moderating this site.  Much better than I would do! That's no joke.  

Jack

[Tyson]

Your argument (while correct) is beside the point.  The thread was NOT locked because of an "a-b" comparison, it was specifically locked because 2 manufacturers with Circles on this site broke the rules.  If that had not happened, the thread would still be open and people could argue till eternity what was better.

[warnerwh]

Personally I just think it was Danny trying to instigate more problems.  His and Brian's rivalry go back further than audiocircle.  Others just played into it.