Omega vs. some other guys - Same drivers, different cabs?

nathanm · « **on:** 26 Feb 2003, 08:01 pm »

I am curious what modifications are done to the Fostex driver that make it different from the stock version. I ask because I am intrigued by the full range driver concept and bought a pair of Fostex FE206E drivers for use in an old speaker cabinet I had sitting around. Well, basically my box is too big and I just used the old port tube from the last speakers. Quick and dirty experiment, basically. I measured the response and it was a bass-dropoff nightmare but with this HUGE hump at 25Hz. Kind of comical.

Anyway, I've seen various designs for these drivers and I'm somewhat confused. I am not trying to stir up rivalry or anything here, I'm just a curious end-user looking for information. On one hand there's Omega who seems to make really nice small ported bass reflex boxes and then there's these guys who offer the same driver but in a larger cabinet. You may ask why the link points to lowther speakers, not the Fostexes. Well, they have a mirrored webpage with the same cabs but with Fostex drivers, but hey all those pic links are broken! Whaddaya want from me?

Although the build quality cannot be assertained by either company's web photos, as they both are too small. Asthetically speaking I'd have to lean towards Omega's blue laminate, personally. Both companies claim bass to 40Hz. Now how can this be I wonder with such differences in cabinet size and porting? Anyone ever compared these two offerings?

The classic audio dudes' (aside from not knowing that you can have more than one page on a website!) sales pitch is a bit hard to swallow after hearing my own speakers, albeit extremely flawed.

Quote

Lowther speakers are the finest speakers on the planet regardless of price. That's quite a statement. But if you talk to anyone who's had the opportunity to hear Lowther drivers in a great cabinet, the vast majority will agree. Even the world's so-called greatest speakers--Wilson Grand Slamm, JM Labs Grande Utopia, Genesis 1, Dynaudio Evidence, etc. (all over $50,000/pr) can't compare. Yes--given that they are enormous speakers--they have more dynamics. But they fall far short in the true tests of a great speaker--realism, clarity, accuracy, speed, truth of timbre, lack of distortion, phase accuracy, time delay, imaging, soundstage, and efficiency.

I mean, what the hell now? You're telling me this 8 inch driver can smite those huge towers? Why isn't everyone listening to these then? I don't get it.

Well, I guess Omega has the edge with the 45 day trial. With the other guys you're stuck with 'em. I'm just wondering how the claimed bass response can be so similar with such different sized designs.

jackman · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Feb 2003, 10:32 pm »

I can only speak to Lou's speakers at Omega, but I would swear by Omega's quality and support 100%. Lou's cabinetry is compact and very well built, and he knows how to get a lot out of Fostex drivers. I don't let fictional measurements influence me at all, Louis is honest and builds a very solid speaker. For the $$$ it is very hard to beat, if you have the right amplification. I couldn't live with big horns in my house (small house). The Omega cabinets are very cool and the funky colors and laminates are amazing. The blue doesn't match my decor but in the right style house, they would look really cool.

J

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Feb 2003, 03:35 pm »

I too can only speak for the Omegas. I think attention to detail is critical with the Fostex drivers. Having opened them up to take a look, I know mods are done to dampen the driver basket, and a piece of Black Hole behind the driver is strategically placed to reduce reflections back into the cone. The cabinet is very well braced, which would also help control resonances. Maybe there is more done that I missed. Control of resonance nasties seems to be critical.

And as Jack says, I have never had better customer support from a company of any kind than I have received from Louis.

Check out the Decware.com site - the description of the Gizmo device indicates the Lowthers remain forward and somewhat shouty even after break-in, but the Gizmo tames that. Hmm. I need to hear them for myself. I think I am getting hooked on the whole single-driver thing.

albee · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Feb 2003, 04:37 pm »

A critical difference is that the large Omegas use a 207E not a 206E. The 207 specs differently and has a friendlier QTS for bass reflex loading. That probably has something to do with smaller vs. larger boxes. The 206E, by Fostex own literature, suggests it be used in a bass horn, although that is NOT a law.

nathanm · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Feb 2003, 05:56 pm »

Doh! You're right. How did I miss that in the 'ol Fostex PDF? I thought the only difference was that it was shielded, but upon closer inspection some of the funny numbers are indeed different. I wonder how much difference it makes in the 'real world'. Hmmm.

JLM · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Mar 2003, 01:17 pm »

The midrange "shout" that Lowthers are famous for has been effectively resolved with the rolled edge whizzer cone they currently use.

I've heard three versions of Lowther drivers and one Fostex (all were in a rear horn loaded cabinets). The last time was a Lowther DX4 in Hedlund Horns with a 18 inch Genesis sub (total street price around $7,000 USD) they blew away the new Meadowlark Ospeys ($3,000 USD retail).

Highly efficient, light weight drivers like these can be incredibly revealing and dynamic. Covering most of the audible spectrum with a single driver provides the best possible imaging and coherence. Eliminating the crossover adds more efficiency, the problem with different dispersion characteristics from different drivers, phasing problems, voicing differences between drivers/driver types, etc. And without a crossover in the way, the amp sees the driver load perfectly and can react better.

With these higher efficiencies, the wonderful world of SET's (single ended triode, small tube power amps) opens up. The Decware.com site mentioned above offers reasonably priced SET's and has an active forum that has much discussion on high efficiency speakers.

IMO, there really is no such thing as a full range driver. The best compromise is a powered sub that you can adjust to the room with a pair of single driver speakers. The smaller the driver the better (less beaming of higher frequency signals and less mass to maximize efficiency/dynamics). That is what has intrigued me about the Omega TS3.

Comparing Classic with Omega: Classic has larger cabinet options that go lower (probably low enough to not need a sub for music) and most the drivers they recommend can be interchanged between Fostex and Lowther; Omega has a return policy with more than one option for standmounted speakers, but only offers Fostex drivers.

Bosh · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Mar 2003, 05:53 am »

I've had the honor of seeing Louis in action, swapping baskets from cabinet to cabinet. I didn't "look" too hard, because I could tell he was uncomfortable. And I don't want to talk our of school. But I still saw...

him stick a big wad of "Double Bubble" chewing gum on the magnet.

Then he waved chicken feet over the whole deal and killed, I swear to God, a whole goat.

Taking a tiny triangle cut from an Omega patented area of the goat's entrails, I watched in both horror and awe as he delicately placed that still throbbing section of organ onto the interior, ie: driver-out side, of the Southernmost of the three basket braces (with Blue Tack, of course).

Then Satan came and we all listened to "Famous Blue Raincoat" and Satan said, "You know, this 'Artic Blue' would look just killer in my rec room."

Needless to say, he'll be back for subwoofers.

Hope this helped.

nathanm · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Mar 2003, 04:11 pm »

*deleted a funny image*

Louis O · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Mar 2003, 02:03 pm »

I have checked out the Classic site and Albee is spot on with the 206E vs 207E. The 206E is not a right choice for Bass Reflex at all. I really don't know how they can get a decent amount of bass out of this driver in a BR cabinet.

Thanks,
Louis

Adriel · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Apr 2003, 01:30 am »

Quote from: JLM

Covering most of the audible spectrum with a single driver provides the best possible imaging and coherence. Eliminating the crossover adds more efficiency, the problem with different dispersion characteristics from different drivers, phasing problems, voicing differences between drivers/driver types, etc.

I may be wrong, but the whizzer cone acts as a mechanical crossover, and it distorts phase coherency.

I didn't get the Omega TS2R for its efficiency though, so as a future upgrade I'm considering a Quad ESL as a single-transducer, point-source, phase coherent speaker.

JLM · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Apr 2003, 11:44 am »

Adriel:

Good point! (regarding whizzer cones acting mechanically as a cross-over)

I've never cared for trying to have a smaller cone handle higher frequencies from the same driver or having the whizzer "in the way" of the larger cone and creating interferences between the drivers. That's why the TS3/Super 3 intrigues me so much.

IMO there's some unknown effect(s) going on that helps make whizzers work that we don't fully understand, similar to how well vinyl still work after 100+ years!!

jeff

Bill Baker · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Apr 2003, 03:27 pm »

Here are some pics of the new TS3 Super cabinets. I just transplanted the drivers into these cabinets and listening now.

nathanm · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Apr 2003, 06:02 am »

Well I happened to read this review at Enjoy The Music and it pretty much sealed the deal in MY mind as to which vendor of single driver speakers I'd try first! Mr. Dicks' response is the kicker! The man has an appropriate last name, that much is clear. Yeah "Moving Pictures" is a horribly recorded album...

give me a break! If your speakers are only good for playing some limp-wristed jazz then at least say so on the website. Make it clear that you are producing a specialized product intended only for use with a preordained set of "blessed" recordings instead of telling everyone they rival multi-kilobuck systems. I always felt a bit perplexed when I read that blather on the website, now I can really put it into perspective! How pathetic.

Lowther review at ETM

So this begs the question, Louis O; can Omega single driver loudspeakers play music besides Patricia Barber whispering?

Like, could they play (is everyone sitting down?) ROCK!? *gasp*

Ha!

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Apr 2003, 02:48 pm »

Over the last week, I've listend to (on TS-1's) Tool Lateralus,
King Crimson The Power to Belive, and The Who Live at Leeds. Does that count as rock?

Live at Leeds was put on by my wife while she was vacuuming the first floor living room - the speakers are in the basement. I heard it in the upstairs bedroom. We have acoustical wool insulation in the basement ceiling, which is drywalled.

Yes, singe driver speakers can play very loud.

JLM · « **Reply #14 on:** 29 Apr 2003, 10:37 am »

It may not be appropriate to post here regarding the Lowther speakers, but ...

David Dicks has always been very hesitant to allow his speakers to be reviewed outside his own listening room. This along with NO return policy makes his speakers very tough to buy. On the other hand it must give great amounts of heartburn to hand off your stuff to esentially strangers to review in unknown settings, set-ups, and recordings just so they can post their impressions on the net. And obviously in this game, the reviewer will always have the last say.

At least a couple of folks from the Decware forum, including Steve Deckert himself, endorse these speakers. Again placement is reported to be critical. IMO a decent speaker, let alone a great speaker, shouldn't be fussy regarding placement, set-up, source, or playback volume levels. Yes, each of those factors would, should affect how the speakers perform, but a good speaker should still sound good.

At the recent Midwest Audio Fest I heard several different Fostex based speakers (Omega, Terry Cain's TQWP Abby's, and Madisound bass horns). Each provided, to my ear, some of best sound of show, and at a reasonable price. Funny, but with all the different vendors there and high efficiency being emphasized, I don't recall any Lowther based speakers being there (aside from Welborne Labs AER's). Is the grandfather of all high efficiency drivers ready for retirement?

nathanm · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Apr 2003, 03:06 pm »

Quote from: JLM

IMO a decent speaker, let alone a great speaker, shouldn't be fussy regarding placement, set-up, source, or playback volume levels. Yes, each of those factors would, should affect how the speakers perform, but a good speaker should still sound good.

Yep, that says it all right there. Surely the room and placement plays an important part, but the fundamental character of the speaker is not going to change simply by following every suggestion the designer gives. And if the speakers are so fussy you have to ask yourself, "What's the point?" I've found that if a speaker has a serious bass deficiency then cramming them in corners doesn't really perform any miracles.

The fact that there's no return policy is also worrying. Maybe you have to submit a blueprint of your room, a list of equipment and the recordings you plan on listening to for approval before ordering?

Louis O · « **Reply #16 on:** 5 May 2003, 02:01 pm »

Hi NathanM and JLM,

For the most part reviewers will let you know beforehand what size room they have and equipment they will use. They may ask how to place the speakers or you can send instructions. That's as far as I go with it. They know their room better than me and they usually try a lot of placements anyway. I would assume if there were a major problem they would contact the manufacturer.

I like jazz, but I couldn't listen to it all the time. All the Omega speakers will play a wide range of music. I pretty much like everything and play a lot of :

Zappa
Jimi Hendrix
ZZ Top
Pink Floyd
Steely Dan
Buddy Guy
Classical
Folk
etc. etc.

Bwanagreg · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 May 2003, 02:24 pm »

Louis,

I should have guessed you were a Zappa fan.

So when do you think you'll offer a new laminate - Son of Mr. Green Genes green?

nathanm · « **Reply #18 on:** 5 May 2003, 03:43 pm »

Why not just offer the option of having any laminate you want from Pionite or whomever? Hundreds upon hundreds to choose from! Heh! Of course, it would cost extra as Louis wouldn't stock it, but it would be kinda cool. A 4x8' sheet generally costs around a hundred bucks or less. I am not sure if it comes in smaller sheets or not.

It's pretty cool to see speaker finishes that don't all look the same. (ie colors & textures besides wood! Heh!)

Louis O · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 May 2003, 12:34 am »

Sounds like a great idea.

I would be more than happy to apply any laminate from Pionite except anything white. Really hard to paint the edges, always bleeds through. They have a wide range of patterns and colors and the sheet costs me about $58 to $70 depending on vertical or horizontal grade. If anybody wants to buy the full sheet no problem at all and I would only charge my wholesale cost. www.pionite.com

Thanks Nathanm for the great idea.

I admit I'm a big Zappa fan and I have Hot Rats spinning away on my MMF5 as I write. Also I think I was the only one at MAF playing Pantera. Three Maggie owners from Kansas stopped by and wanted to hear it ( their CD) was pretty cool in a head banging way.